On March 25th, the new Sunking layout by Brian will be available.
We will now have 3 different klone layout to choose from, with Aion's Refraktor and my own Chimaera.
Couple weeks ago, i've come up with that idea in a build thread by JabulaniJohnny, seen here:
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=14217.0
Soon as Brian have the Sunking stocked, i'll order one and one of Aion layout aswell.
But!! I do need to get these shipped to a forum member who has the required equipement to make an efficient analysis of the «Tone Print» of each circuits, using the same components.
To do so, i will on my end ship a ChimaeraBFD PCB with sockets installed on it for all of the components, all the components and all the strip sockets needed to do the same on the two other boards.
I will also include the 3 pots and footswitch, all of them will have the commodity of being able to hook up to the different circuit without being a PITA.
This is seriously just for the well of science and my personnal curiosity since these 3 layouts are based on the exact same schematic.
Who's up to the work of analysing?
Cheers!
Rej
Looks like it is the 5th now. Im hoping the build docs would be up before.
The shoot out should also be someone with the original klone - it will be somewhat of a control in this sciencey experiment
Quote from: ddog on March 18, 2014, 08:51:43 PM
Looks like it is the 5th now. Im hoping the build docs would be up before.
The shoot out should also be someone with the original klone - it will be somewhat of a control in this sciencey experiment
I've thought of that... but who has a Klone, a scope, a function generator, a pink noise microphone and an audio analysis program?
I have the pink noise microphone and RCF audio analysis software tho...
My goal with this shootout is to see if differences between how layouts are made can really affect the tone of 3 identical circuits using the exact parts.
Using a Klon in there, would mix the data collect... no problem with it if the Klon owner is willing to depopulate and socket is Horsy! ;)
I have access to a few really cool pieces of equipment here at work. I have an old Stanford Research spectrum analyzer, Agilent function generators, Agilent network analyzers, HP LCR meters and a really fast oscilloscope. Send me a PM and we can figure out what you want to do.
Edit: And I also have a bunch of Klones (probably 3 or 4 right now including an EHX soul food)
Quote from: JakeFuzz on March 18, 2014, 09:03:42 PM
I have access to a few really cool pieces of equipment here at work. I have an old Stanford Research spectrum analyzer, Agilent function generators, Agilent network analyzers, HP LCR meters and a really fast oscilloscope. Send me a PM and we can figure out what you want to do.
Edit: And I also have a bunch of Klones (probably 3 or 4 right now including an EHX soul food)
Awesome!
If you're willing to go through all of them, charting the data with a list of test to proceed, you're the man.
Speaking of tests, i think that doing a spreadsheet would be the way to go, it will compile and those interested in this shootout could also chime in.
All input is welcomed so we can make this the most accurate possible and be sure to pick the most valuable information. I think a lot can be learned from an experiement like this. :)
I wouldn't mind. Most of these tests dont take more than a few minutes to setup and run. I would have to come in during the weekend but that is no big deal.
I think there are 4 pieces of info you should get and they will all be charts as a function of frequency. Swept sine frequency response, harmonic frequency response, input impedance and output impedance. All of these can be done on the spectrum analyzer (or the FFT function on our Agilent scope) and the LCR meter. I can sweep up to 120kHz on the SA but the LCR has discretized frequencies up to around 400kHz (I think). You can do this at a few settings for each circuit. The pots should be connected either via sockets or breadboard so you can use the same pots and settings for each data point on each circuit. Honestly I expect to very little difference between the circuits though.
Hey I was mentioned in a thread?! I'm blushing...no really. ;D
That would be a pretty sweet test, but like Jake says, I'd expect next to no difference since they should be based on the same schem; I know that the Refractor and Chimaera are any way.
Would be a cool test though.
Today is the Day!
Hey Jake, do you happen to have a KingSlayer?
Today is not the day, unfortunately.
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=14988.msg140607#msg140607
If I could at least get shipping notification I'd be happy to add the upcoming boards to the sale. I don't feel too comfortable doing that until I at least know they are on the way.
Quote from: madbean on April 16, 2014, 12:34:17 AM
Today is not the day, unfortunately.
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=14988.msg140607#msg140607
If I could at least get shipping notification I'd be happy to add the upcoming boards to the sale. I don't feel too comfortable doing that until I at least know they are on the way.
Ah! Missed that one.
No need to pre-order, my task to keep an eye on this ;)
Post your science results on TGP!
Quote from: Tremster on April 16, 2014, 07:23:23 AM
Post your science results on TGP!
With the sheer amount of P&W players on there, any lack of discrepancy would only be attributed to the devils work...
Quote from: juansolo on April 16, 2014, 07:29:20 AM
Quote from: Tremster on April 16, 2014, 07:23:23 AM
Post your science results on TGP!
With the sheer amount of P&W players on there, any lack of discrepancy would only be attributed to the devils work...
That might actually be interesting!
I used my Kingslayer for a few months in church.
Went back to the LaVache, with very careful use of the Cosmopolitan.
My guess: they will sound damn near identical ;)
Maybe a gnats bollocks difference between them (due to component tolerances etc.).
I think the more important factors for many DIY'ers is the form etc. for ease of building (PCB size, pcb mounted pots, jack locations, io location, component orientations etc.).
I'll be interested to read your findings though.
Hey Rej - shoot me your address via PM and I'll get a Refractor in the mail. I'm happy to donate to the cause :)
When you setup the recordings, I'd suggest using a Sound Level Meter to make sure everything is the same SPL; don't go by the settings on the knobs as the tolerances can vary quite a bit.
Different SPLs can result in a difference in perception by the listener. In this case, it could also alter how the amp is being driven.
Sorry I am late to the party once again! Rej, yes I have a kingslayer but it is irreversibly modified (or it would be very difficult to modify it back to the original circuit). I also have a Sunking with the same modifications. I have a stock Apis with LM313H clippers and an unpopulated Apis PCB. I also have a stock Soul Food. These tests are so easy to run I am just going to bring them all into my lab and test them. The more data the better right? :D
So these tests are done without an amp; the inputs and outputs are connected directly into the spectrum analyzer or function generator. I am thinking of using fixed voltage dividers for at least volume and tone to eliminate having to use a pot which will need to be transferred between the circuits. I am going to fix the volume for the spectral sweeps (not impedance) simply because the high voltage swing of these circuits can overload the input of the spectrum analyzer. If it matters to anyone the spectrum analyzer is an SRS785, the LCR meter is an HP 4274A, the function generator is an Agilent 33120A and the scope will be an Agilent DSO-X 4202A.
Quote from: raulduke on April 16, 2014, 01:45:34 PM
My guess: they will sound damn near identical ;)
Maybe a gnats bollocks difference between them (due to component tolerances etc.).
I think the more important factors for many DIY'ers is the form etc. for ease of building (PCB size, pcb mounted pots, jack locations, io location, component orientations etc.).
I'll be interested to read your findings though.
So the tolerance equation remains the same for the 3 main DIY Project tested, Chimaera, Refraktor and SunkingII all the components will be socketed, so the same are used on the 3, good idea from Pickdropper! 8)
Quote from: alanp on April 16, 2014, 08:23:54 AM
I used my Kingslayer for a few months in church.
Went back to the LaVache, with very careful use of the Cosmopolitan.
Agreed, you don't want to mess the setting on that one before actuating it... it could get change the whole vibe in the church i guess.... ;D
Quote from: JakeFuzz on April 16, 2014, 06:03:10 PM
Sorry I am late to the party once again! Rej, yes I have a kingslayer but it is irreversibly modified (or it would be very difficult to modify it back to the original circuit). I also have a Sunking with the same modifications. I have a stock Apis with LM313H clippers and an unpopulated Apis PCB. I also have a stock Soul Food. These tests are so easy to run I am just going to bring them all into my lab and test them. The more data the better right? :D
So these tests are done without an amp; the inputs and outputs are connected directly into the spectrum analyzer or function generator. I am thinking of using fixed voltage dividers for at least volume and tone to eliminate having to use a pot which will need to be transferred between the circuits. I am going to fix the volume for the spectral sweeps (not impedance) simply because the high voltage swing of these circuits can overload the input of the spectrum analyzer. If it matters to anyone the spectrum analyzer is an SRS785, the LCR meter is an HP 4274A, the function generator is an Agilent 33120A and the scope will be an Agilent DSO-X 4202A.
That's also what i thought that would be the best way of doing it, just the pedals in stand alone.
I have to agree with most on this tho... it will likely all sound the same... but Science! ;D
Quote from: juansolo on April 16, 2014, 07:29:20 AM
Quote from: Tremster on April 16, 2014, 07:23:23 AM
Post your science results on TGP!
With the sheer amount of P&W players on there, any lack of discrepancy would only be attributed to the devils work...
Juan, didn't you have access to an original Klon? My mind could be playing tricks on me, so please correct me if I'm wrong..... And I have an extra Kingslayer board I'd be willing to donate to science. How could I have missed this thread for so long!
Paul
Quote from: aion on April 16, 2014, 03:42:46 PM
Hey Rej - shoot me your address via PM and I'll get a Refractor in the mail. I'm happy to donate to the cause :)
I'll send you a PM in a few, but i'd likely get it shipped directly to Jake and i would also likely pay for the pcb. ;)
Once this whole thing is done, i think that the circuit used and a printed version of the results will ask to be framed for the lulz.
Ill buy the SKII board. I was planning on getting one anyway. Hey Rej what type of sockets do you have? The ones I have are from Tayda and wont hold components for more than 1-2 swaps. I am hoping someone has better sockets I can use so part aren't falling out all over the place during testing. As for framing that sounds like an excellent plan ;D
Quote from: JakeFuzz on April 16, 2014, 06:54:36 PM
Ill buy the SKII board. I was planning on getting one anyway. Hey Rej what type of sockets do you have? The ones I have are from Tayda and wont hold components for more than 1-2 swaps. I am hoping someone has better sockets I can use so part aren't falling out all over the place during testing. As for framing that sounds like an excellent plan ;D
I also have the Tayda at the moment... left overs from my past orders, but i'll likely do a Mouser order by the end of this week since i did'nt do it this weekend, will get some «machined» grade ones, for the IC aswell. Will ship to you upon reception with the Chimaera board.
Sounds good. I placed a Mouser order earlier this week for some amp stuff but totally forgot about getting sockets.
I think with fixed volume we may want to do 3 tone positions and 3 gain positions on each circuit for 9 points. We could also do 4 positions for 16 data points or potentially more but that might be overkill considering there is a good chance all three of the plots will be on top of one another.
Quote from: JakeFuzz on April 17, 2014, 07:05:26 PM
Sounds good. I placed a Mouser order earlier this week for some amp stuff but totally forgot about getting sockets.
I think with fixed volume we may want to do 3 tone positions and 3 gain positions on each circuit for 9 points. We could also do 4 positions for 16 data points or potentially more but that might be overkill considering there is a good chance all three of the plots will be on top of one another.
3 positons for the pots should be good, the same 3 pots will be used for the DIY layouts, using their set resistance instead of eye balling the position should give a relatively precise reading through all of them.
Quote from: TNblueshawk on April 16, 2014, 02:22:17 PM
Quote from: Tremster on April 16, 2014, 07:23:23 AM
Post your science results on TGP!
+1 Rej !!
If someone is up to post the results on TGP it's all good, but i won't do it, because i don't have any Rep over there, and it kinds a make me happy! ;)