madbeanpedals::forum

Projects => General Questions => Requests => Topic started by: phil esposito on September 02, 2011, 11:13:08 AM

Title: Double Delay Boards
Post by: phil esposito on September 02, 2011, 11:13:08 AM
I'm not sure if this has been covered or not but I would love to get my hands on some double delay boards.

Any chance of these becoming available?
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: madbean on September 03, 2011, 12:18:27 PM
Most likely not from me. With the Aquaboy now out of stock, I'm considering revising it to include the dual delay and modulation in one board, although I have not made any final decisions.
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: timbo_93631 on September 03, 2011, 12:29:45 PM
With my AB I could never get rid of the clock noise enough with just one V3205, even after really getting it calibrated pretty well.  I have to use the dual delay board just to get it to where a single mn3005 aqua puss is.  Revising the board to include a second BBD would be a good idea. You have to get a prett tall enclosure to accomodate the add on board like I have.
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: Scruffie on September 03, 2011, 01:45:40 PM
There's a vero layout floating about for the Double Delay board, that help?

Also in the original files, there was an etchable version, sure someone around can etch you one.

Most likely not from me. With the Aquaboy now out of stock, I'm considering revising it to include the dual delay and modulation in one board, although I have not made any final decisions.

Sounds like a cool plan, although i'd perhaps drop the LED/LDR Combo in favour of another method, seems like there was a lot of confusion about what to use there.

Tell you what would be fun... adding the Bypass system of the Echo Base so we could have an Modulated 550mS Analog delay with Tails  :D
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: gtr2 on September 03, 2011, 03:15:58 PM
I've used this vero layout before.

http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DoubleDelay.gif

I actually prefer the led/ldr modulation :D

Josh
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: Scruffie on September 03, 2011, 04:19:51 PM
I've used this vero layout before.

http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DoubleDelay.gif

I actually prefer the led/ldr modulation :D

Josh
That's the vero I meant  :)

Prefer it to what? It shouldn't have a 'sound' it's just variable resistance, a FET set up to act as a variable resistor would do the same and be cheaper... plus it would allow the modulation to get in to ring mod speed territory  ;D

LED/LDR LFOs are simple to implement though i'll give them that... and it is already tried and tested on this build.
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: madbean on September 03, 2011, 04:56:56 PM
I tend to agree that a transistor driven variable resistor is better here due to space. I also agree that a mashup between the Aquaboy and EchoBase is the way to go. Furthermore, it's already half-way completed so too late to turn back now  ;D
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: gtr2 on September 03, 2011, 05:27:12 PM
I've used this vero layout before.

http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DoubleDelay.gif

I actually prefer the led/ldr modulation :D

Josh
That's the vero I meant  :)

Prefer it to what? It shouldn't have a 'sound' it's just variable resistance, a FET set up to act as a variable resistor would do the same and be cheaper... plus it would allow the modulation to get in to ring mod speed territory  ;D

LED/LDR LFOs are simple to implement though i'll give them that... and it is already tried and tested on this build.

It was a bit of a joke...  but I do like watching the pulsing LED  ;)
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: Scruffie on September 03, 2011, 06:36:29 PM
I've used this vero layout before.

http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DoubleDelay.gif

I actually prefer the led/ldr modulation :D

Josh
That's the vero I meant  :)

Prefer it to what? It shouldn't have a 'sound' it's just variable resistance, a FET set up to act as a variable resistor would do the same and be cheaper... plus it would allow the modulation to get in to ring mod speed territory  ;D

LED/LDR LFOs are simple to implement though i'll give them that... and it is already tried and tested on this build.

It was a bit of a joke...  but I do like watching the pulsing LED  ;)
Ahh, then we can tap off Pin 1 of the LFO (usually Pin 1 anyway) and have a modulated LED any way.

Plus shouldn't the LED/LDR combo really be in shrink wrap  :P

I tend to agree that a transistor driven variable resistor is better here due to space. I also agree that a mashup between the Aquaboy and EchoBase is the way to go. Furthermore, it's already half-way completed so too late to turn back now  ;D
You're either a mind reader or you work incredibly fast!

Either way... sod Analog 'Voiced' delay with trails, this sounds awesome!  ;D

Wanna make it 3 x 3205s?  :P

Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: gtr2 on September 04, 2011, 05:00:50 AM
I actually never cover the LED/LDR once it's in the enclosure, only for testing outside the box.  :D
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: phil esposito on September 04, 2011, 03:54:35 PM
Most likely not from me. With the Aquaboy now out of stock, I'm considering revising it to include the dual delay and modulation in one board, although I have not made any final decisions.

Darn.... :'(
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: madbean on September 05, 2011, 07:33:05 AM
It will be a few weeks until I get to finalize this, but the basic design work on the Deluxe Aquaboy is finished. It's got the dual delay, modulation and tails options all on board.



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: Scruffie on September 05, 2011, 10:48:36 AM
It will be a few weeks until I get to finalize this, but the basic design work on the Deluxe Aquaboy is finished. It's got the dual delay, modulation and tails options all on board.


Another sweet ass layout, regretting selling my spare 3205s now, not gunna have enough!
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: T_MBaker on September 06, 2011, 02:26:25 AM
This is gonna be soooooo cool!!!

Champion effort again Madbean
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: bigmufffuzzwizz on September 06, 2011, 02:25:46 PM
Woah! That came together really quick..I haven't started the AB boards i bought due to calibration issues people have mentioned. This new layout looks great!!
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: hoyager on September 08, 2011, 04:33:49 AM
Awesome man! is that a gain trim I see for the input level to the v3205's?

Also is it possible to make the minimum rate for the lfo really slow? like < 1hz?

Andy
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: madbean on September 08, 2011, 05:42:46 AM
The gain trim is between the two BBDs to allow for some level adjusting. I added that based on how the DMM is set up...we'll see if it is actually needed. I won't be bread boarding this one since most of the design has already been solidified so it goes straight to building the prototype.

For the LFO, right now I have something close to the existing modulation board, but not quite. I think I will breadboard that up and test it with my regular Aquaboy first to see what kind of range we can get.
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: Scruffie on September 08, 2011, 09:09:31 AM
The gain trim is between the two BBDs to allow for some level adjusting. I added that based on how the DMM is set up...we'll see if it is actually needed. I won't be bread boarding this one since most of the design has already been solidified so it goes straight to building the prototype.

For the LFO, right now I have something close to the existing modulation board, but not quite. I think I will breadboard that up and test it with my regular Aquaboy first to see what kind of range we can get.
The reason there's a gain trim in the DMM though is because there's an extra make up gain stage between them, have you added that here? It is good but not entirely necessary. You shouldn't need to trim anything out if nothing's being made up though.

If you are however adding in the extra opamp gain stage (which I assume by opamp count you are) then did you see Dirk Hendriks notes on the improvements that can be made to this stage? Adding a fixed reference to the gain stage so that the gain trim and bias don't interact to get the best headroom.

http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4051&p=153820&hilit=Behringer+Vintage+Time+Machine#p153820

At 9V that will help things regarding distortion, every little counts.
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: Scruffie on September 08, 2011, 12:13:19 PM
Awesome man! is that a gain trim I see for the input level to the v3205's?

Also is it possible to make the minimum rate for the lfo really slow? like < 1hz?

Andy

If you want slower rates, increase the LFO cap size with 2 Back to Back Electrolytics (Negatives Joined).

For the LFO, right now I have something close to the existing modulation board, but not quite. I think I will breadboard that up and test it with my regular Aquaboy first to see what kind of range we can get.

If it doesn't work out so well on your regular Aquaboy with this set up, feel free to shoot me the schematic for this with the Dirtbag one and i'll see if I can help out.
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: madbean on September 08, 2011, 04:19:12 PM
Thanks Scruffie. I hope to have a look at it tomorrow. I have sufficient room on the board to do either something LDR or JFET/BiPolar driven. I'll be looking at all options.
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: hoyager on September 14, 2011, 06:23:25 PM
Hey, I might be a bit late buit I just checked out the MXR 117, which seems to have a really smooth and nice lfo driving it, which I imagine would sound amazing on the 'deluxe' aquaboy. Doesn't seem that much more complex than the current lfo judging by the schematic.
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: rjkanejr on September 15, 2011, 07:04:29 AM
Tap Tempo???  PLEASE OH PLEASE - These things need tap tempo with an external jack that can throw the clock out to other pedals - for example, it woudl be cool to use one tap tempo pedal to tap the tempo for the delay and have that also sent to the tap tempo tremolo or modified line 6 DL4 and set the time for all three pedals.  I am not a mad genius like the Bean and some of you all here, but I was reading the specs on the LFO chip that musicpcb sells for their tape tempo tremolo and it appears that it can be used for tap tempo on the echo base.  Is that possible and could that same chip or similar method be used here?
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: jkokura on September 15, 2011, 07:36:32 AM
That chip can be used on the LFO of the echobase - the modulation, not the delay.

Your idea about a universal tap tempo is a good one, and theoretically possible, however it is very, very challenging to try and make happen, especially for analog delay like this one. For example, head over to Diamond's website and take a look at the guts of the Memory Lane 1 and 2. see how complicated that is? I don't mean to offend, but it's not so simple to just 'throw it in'. I really suggest you research a bit more about tap tempo DIY.

Tap tempo is neither easy nor readily avaiable, and there is no current and readily available project to apply that would come even close to what you are suggesting. Perhaps one might turn up however. There has been a taptation product available for quite a while that I am looking into for applying it's use in a PT2399 delay, but thats been a slow process for me. It won't be external in my application, nor will it be useable with any other pedals than a rebote type delay.

One company you might want to take a look at is Cusack. They have a number of products that are tap tempo ready and can be universally controlled. You could also go with a midi controlled rack setup, or with a couple of the Eventide 'factor' pedals.

Jacob
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: rjkanejr on September 15, 2011, 08:01:38 AM
No offense taken, and as I said, I am no electronics genius.  No offense to you, but I do kind of take offense to you RTFM comment.  I have been reading, but unfortunately have not been able to locate any pertinent information or anyone that has actually built a tap tempo delay (although it appears Brian built an Echo Base with a taptation once - check out the build reports) or I would have built my own at this point, which is why I posted the reply.  I understand that it is difficult because it seems that very few people have accomplished it except by using digital and COSM type effects/chips.  If I had all the money in the world I would by the Space Echo and TimeFactor and use the MIDI to sync the tap (a friend of mine uses this setup and it sounds incredible) but alas I can't just pull $800-$1000 out of my arse.  Again - no offense.  It seems to me that one of the reasons that people DIY is because it is cheaper, it is a challenge, one can customize, and it is most satisfying to use something that one created himself/herself.  With my non-genious grey matter, it just seems that it should be possible, but apparently it is more difficult than I think it is.  Which is why you guys design and I build and ask stupid questions I guess?
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: jkokura on September 15, 2011, 09:08:10 AM
I'm not sure what RTFM means exactly, but if you're meaning my comment about reading up more about Tap Tempo, I meant more that I encouraged you to start exploring and learning how to do it. You've stated that you don't know much, I meant that perhaps you could start looking into it for us and letting us know perhaps what kind of ideas you might have on making something work! I was trying to be encouraging, not criticizing.

Again, not meaning to offend. My point was simply to suggest that it's a bigger job than we're up to at this point.

Here's what I'm thinking though. I'm going to be looking seriously at the taptation circuit during the next month. Perhaps I'll be able to put out a layout that includes a Rebote and Taptation on one board. From there we might look at how to apply the taptation to a tremolo, or other type of pedal. I can't make any promises, but if you'd like to help out with prototyping and even brainstorming about the pedal functions, perhaps we can start a new thread. I would appreciate the help.

Jacob
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: rjkanejr on September 15, 2011, 10:00:09 AM
Sorry - I am so used to people criticizing (work) that I took your comments negatively.  I should know better as everyone here on this forum has been so helpful.  This really is a great forum and community.  I would love to help in my limited capacity.  I am about to build a tap tremolo for a friend so that may help learn me a bit.  I would love to see tap tempo in a pedal available here, or through some other DIY forum.  My thinking is that it would be great to see interoperability between store bought and home made pedals.  I know that there are mods for other delay units, particularly the DL4 that  allows for external tap tempo with an out jack that passes the tap to another pedal.  It would be great to be able to build a pedal from MadBean or other DIY sources and be able to use it in conjunction with other pedals, say the tape trem, DL4 and the Dirtbag delay.  I did look at the Diamond and it looks like they are using the same chips that Brian is using for the Dirtbag comign soon.  The Diamond has tap tempo (at least for one of teh delays) so I am thinking that either there is tap tempo in Brian's design or it is possible.
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: gtr2 on September 15, 2011, 11:11:21 AM
This is an area I am interested in as well but like Jacob said, it just isn't as easy.  Being around here for quite a while, I don't ever recall a situation or question being in the tone of "RTFM"  I had to wiki it.  I figured it wasn't "Ray Tracing Figure of Merit"  I've seen that attitude on other forums but not here.  Which is why I stick around.   :)  We are glad you're here  :)

The similar chips in the Memory Lane and the Dirtbag only relate to the mn3005's BBD's, not any additional tap tempo circuitry.  I have no idea how tap tempo is done with BBD's but there is most likely a digital controller/digital potentiometer of some sort.  Something I have no knowledge of and it has a steep learning curve compared to analog stuff IMO.  Maybe one day...we can hope, right  ;D

Josh
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: Scruffie on November 20, 2011, 09:08:00 AM
Hey Brian, Did you get anywhere with this idea in the end?
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: madbean on November 21, 2011, 07:36:24 PM
I've got the prototype board on the bench waiting for me. It'll be several days before I can do it....gotta finish these documents first. But, yeah, I am totally stoked to build it up.
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: madbean on November 25, 2011, 08:58:18 PM
Built the prototype today. It's about 90% there. I'm going to tweak the compander a bit and the modulation.

Scruff-you were right about the little extra gain stage I put between the two BBDs. It is not needed.
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: Scruffie on November 25, 2011, 09:39:39 PM
Built the prototype today. It's about 90% there. I'm going to tweak the compander a bit and the modulation.

Scruff-you were right about the little extra gain stage I put between the two BBDs. It is not needed.
Can I possibly see your schematic? If you have an OpAmp/Half One spare, I think I may be able to make some use of it...

Plus I can hopefully help with your compander and modulation.

I think as we have the DMM, we may as well make this the most bad ass alternative possible, Analog delay with tails is already most of the way there.
Title: Re: Double Delay Boards
Post by: Scruffie on December 05, 2011, 10:40:59 PM
Just had a nice little idea here if you are loosing an Op-Amp, add a charge pump/15v reg and we could use theseee... http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=247

Or ya know... when it comes about people could just use those and a Road Rage, just thought it'd be a nice use for them as the Aqua Boy only had 300ms originally any way and it's always nice to support a supplier.