madbeanpedals::forum

General => Open Discussion => Topic started by: LaceSensor on September 26, 2019, 06:37:12 PM

Title: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: LaceSensor on September 26, 2019, 06:37:12 PM
JHS has put out a mass produced clone of his own 1995 Big Cheese
He has called it the Cheeseball which doubles the irony as Vlad from Lovetone talked of releasing a new product in 2015 called... the Cheeseball

This announcement has already drawn some Umbrage from Dan Coggins who designed the Lovetone pedals.

I say all fair in love(tone) and war - I just hope JHS did it right
I await gutshots with baited breath
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: Muadzin on September 27, 2019, 09:34:36 AM
The Big Cheese? Meh, too common, too easy. Call me once JHS starts cloning the modulation pedals. Those are the fun ones.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: LaceSensor on September 27, 2019, 10:27:29 AM
The Big Cheese? Meh, too common, too easy. Call me once JHS starts cloning the modulation pedals. Those are the fun ones.

Cant say I disagree.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: Govmnt_Lacky on September 27, 2019, 10:58:04 AM
The Big Cheese? Meh, too common, too easy.

Exactly! But, a smart decision in my opinion.

After all... how many times do you read "Look at this new Fuzz I just built" or "Can someone help me debug this Fuzz pedal?" as compared to other projects. Fuzz and OD dominate the market.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: dawson on September 27, 2019, 12:41:03 PM
So if the "Big Cheese" is cloned as the "Cheese Ball".. will JHS release a Lovetone envelope filter clone called the "Big Meat?"
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: skyled on September 27, 2019, 05:42:21 PM
So if the "Big Cheese" is cloned as the "Cheese Ball".. will JHS release a Lovetone envelope filter clone called the "Big Meat?"

It's gotta be the Meaty Balls
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: dawson on September 27, 2019, 06:30:07 PM
It's gotta be the Meaty Balls

I'd happily stomp either.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: alanp on September 27, 2019, 08:23:11 PM
So if the "Big Cheese" is cloned as the "Cheese Ball".. will JHS release a Lovetone envelope filter clone called the "Big Meat?"

Mystery Meat, more like.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: Govmnt_Lacky on September 28, 2019, 02:30:34 PM
This announcement has already drawn some Umbrage from Dan Coggins who designed the Lovetone pedals.

Do you have a link to any verbage from Dan on this subject? Interested in reading his thoughts...

EDIT: Nevermind... found it.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: lars on September 28, 2019, 10:40:56 PM
When I hear "JHS has put out (whatever)...", I can't help but think of this:
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: thorpy6 on September 29, 2019, 02:33:39 AM
I rarely post here...... but weirdly Dan pointed this thread out to me. Iíve posted this text elsewhere mainly in defence of Dan who is trying to stay out of the online discourse as it gets him down.

Hereís  the thing Dan isnít out of the industry, Dan works with me and we are working on and will be releasing new circuits all the time. For legal reasons Dan could not use the original trade dress, circuit layout etc. Now whilst legally, cloning wholesale has become an accepted practice in this industry, it is only human nature to be aggrieved as a designer if you are not compensated for your work. It happens all the time in the music biz, but there people have protection and often people are compensated if their art is ďborrowedĒ

I get it, people want the rare expensive thing and they want it as cheap as possible. But there is a LOT more complexity to this situation than is obvious from first glance.
People will rail on Dan without knowing him but Iíll just say this, when you are beaten to the punch in making your own work more readily available and you can see others getting paid for that work (and you donít) then I defy anyone to be happy about that situation. Yes that is our fault for not moving faster, but my company isnít as big as others so there is only so much I can achieve in the 14hrs working hours in a day.

That being said, we are evolving these past gems, they wonít just be 1:1 clones and they are cool. More importantly Dan will get paid for his work.

Ps. Dan tried to delete the comments, but you know screenshots save that stuff forever.... lol

FWIW Dan is one of the good guys in this world, heís a great mate of mine and would do anything for anyone in need.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: LaceSensor on September 29, 2019, 03:37:47 AM
I rarely post here...... but weirdly Dan pointed this thread out to me. Iíve posted this text elsewhere mainly in defence of Dan who is trying to stay out of the online discourse as it gets him down.

Hereís  the thing Dan isnít out of the industry, Dan works with me and we are working on and will be releasing new circuits all the time. For legal reasons Dan could not use the original trade dress, circuit layout etc. Now whilst legally, cloning wholesale has become an accepted practice in this industry, it is only human nature to be aggrieved as a designer if you are not compensated for your work. It happens all the time in the music biz, but there people have protection and often people are compensated if their art is ďborrowedĒ

I get it, people want the rare expensive thing and they want it as cheap as possible. But there is a LOT more complexity to this situation than is obvious from first glance.
People will rail on Dan without knowing him but Iíll just say this, when you are beaten to the punch in making your own work more readily available and you can see others getting paid for that work (and you donít) then I defy anyone to be happy about that situation. Yes that is our fault for not moving faster, but my company isnít as big as others so there is only so much I can achieve in the 14hrs working hours in a day.

That being said, we are evolving these past gems, they wonít just be 1:1 clones and they are cool. More importantly Dan will get paid for his work.

Ps. Dan tried to delete the comments, but you know screenshots save that stuff forever.... lol

FWIW Dan is one of the good guys in this world, heís a great mate of mine and would do anything for anyone in need.

I think in this whole episode, what is frustrating the most to me personally* is that JHS mentioned they even spoke to Dan in their Lovetone podcast, and yet, he didn't feel inclined to speak to Dan again about releasing on a mass scale the Big Cheese design - allegedly - part for part.

This would have given Dan and yourself the heads up, because tooling up for this release would have taken at least a modicum of time to do which may have informed your release schedule.

I would say however stick to your guns, put the Big Cheese update out there. You might even have a chance to discredit JHS because I would bet that his clone doesn't use the exact same parts as the Big cheese and is therefore not 100% the same as his '95... (which appears to be the major selling point here).



*second most is all the TGP-ers rocking this sound. I feel less elitist already, sat here with my Big Cheese and Cheese Source originals
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: Muadzin on September 29, 2019, 08:12:04 AM
The Big Cheese? Meh, too common, too easy.

Exactly! But, a smart decision in my opinion.

After all... how many times do you read "Look at this new Fuzz I just built" or "Can someone help me debug this Fuzz pedal?" as compared to other projects. Fuzz and OD dominate the market.

I can see the newbies wanting to clone a dirtbox first, as those are kinda easy to troubleshoot, but what's the excuse of all the professional pedal builders? There's like a gazillion fuzz and OD pedals out there, 99% of them a variation on one of only a couple of themes. The world doesn't need yet another fuzz/OD pedal. They all sound the same anyway. Is Lovetone too hard to clone for all these professionals?

I rarely post here...... but weirdly Dan pointed this thread out to me. Iíve posted this text elsewhere mainly in defence of Dan who is trying to stay out of the online discourse as it gets him down.

Hereís  the thing Dan isnít out of the industry, Dan works with me and we are working on and will be releasing new circuits all the time. For legal reasons Dan could not use the original trade dress, circuit layout etc. Now whilst legally, cloning wholesale has become an accepted practice in this industry, it is only human nature to be aggrieved as a designer if you are not compensated for your work. It happens all the time in the music biz, but there people have protection and often people are compensated if their art is ďborrowedĒ

I get it, people want the rare expensive thing and they want it as cheap as possible. But there is a LOT more complexity to this situation than is obvious from first glance.
People will rail on Dan without knowing him but Iíll just say this, when you are beaten to the punch in making your own work more readily available and you can see others getting paid for that work (and you donít) then I defy anyone to be happy about that situation. Yes that is our fault for not moving faster, but my company isnít as big as others so there is only so much I can achieve in the 14hrs working hours in a day.

That being said, we are evolving these past gems, they wonít just be 1:1 clones and they are cool. More importantly Dan will get paid for his work.

Ps. Dan tried to delete the comments, but you know screenshots save that stuff forever.... lol

FWIW Dan is one of the good guys in this world, heís a great mate of mine and would do anything for anyone in need.

Lovetone has been gone for like what? 15? 20 years? If he wanted to re-release these circuits, be it in a slightly modified form for legal reasons, what took him so long? (he said obviously without knowing any of the reasons) This isn't meant as an accusation but more of an observation. Where there is demand, supply will automatically follow. The longer you wait with a re-release, the bigger the chance someone else will beat you to the punch. It's not like over the years these circuits haven't been traced. Better to beat the competition by releasing something that is not perfect now then wait until you have the perfect product later only to have the market glutted with clones already.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: LaceSensor on September 29, 2019, 09:54:51 AM


Lovetone has been gone for like what? 15? 20 years?

11/12 years. The last ones were made I think in 2008
At least Dinosaural were sticking labels for technical support inside them up until 2007 to the best of my knowledge
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: matmosphere on September 29, 2019, 11:10:20 AM
I can totally get why Dan Coggins is upset. A lot of other industries donít work this way at all, even the record industry. If he had, for example, written a hit song then anyone who wanted to rerelease that song would have to pay him royalties and give credit.

Lovetone really stands out because of how creative and innovative their designs were, and I think people in DIY and the industry respect that. I do think this would obviously been a different story if Dan had gotten a heads up before hand.

Ultimately though, if Dan and thorpy are going to rerelease some of these pedals this whole JHS thing could be good for drumming up some press for them. Pedal buyers listen to Josh, and him doing this is gonna bring some more attention to Danís work.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: Govmnt_Lacky on September 29, 2019, 11:54:25 AM
I can see the newbies wanting to clone a dirtbox first, as those are kinda easy to troubleshoot, but what's the excuse of all the professional pedal builders? There's like a gazillion fuzz and OD pedals out there, 99% of them a variation on one of only a couple of themes. The world doesn't need yet another fuzz/OD pedal. They all sound the same anyway. Is Lovetone too hard to clone for all these professionals?

Just for a small comparison of the market, let's ask Brian what his top selling PCBs are. I'm gonna bet that it is in the Fuzz/OD side of the house.

The point I am making is that the world may not need "yet another fuzz/OD" however, they always seem to be the best selling boxes/PCBs out there. What does that tell you?
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: madbean on September 29, 2019, 12:42:32 PM
The modulation stuff tends to sell best which is also where I am focusing the most attention. But I should check and see what the current #1 is. It's been a long time since I looked.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: Govmnt_Lacky on September 29, 2019, 12:48:44 PM
The modulation stuff tends to sell best which is also where I am focusing the most attention. But I should check and see what the current #1 is. It's been a long time since I looked.

Interesting. I find it so weird that the majority of help and build posts that I see on various DIY sights seem to involve dirt pedals. Maybe they are harder to build than modulation/delays?
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: thorpy6 on September 29, 2019, 02:41:02 PM
Pro
The modulation stuff tends to sell best which is also where I am focusing the most attention. But I should check and see what the current #1 is. It's been a long time since I looked.

Probably cos if you have the confidence to attempt delays/modulation you are probably more seasoned and less likely to require help..... not always though I guess...

Interesting. I find it so weird that the majority of help and build posts that I see on various DIY sights seem to involve dirt pedals. Maybe they are harder to build than modulation/delays?
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: skyled on September 29, 2019, 03:46:00 PM
Hasn't (nearly) everything JHS released been a clone of something anyway? Devi Ever had a topic on Diystompboxes listing most of the JHS pedals and what they are clones of. I guess there are only so many different ways to make a fuzz/od.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: Muadzin on September 30, 2019, 04:30:53 AM
I can totally get why Dan Coggins is upset. A lot of other industries donít work this way at all, even the record industry. If he had, for example, written a hit song then anyone who wanted to rerelease that song would have to pay him royalties and give credit.

Lovetone really stands out because of how creative and innovative their designs were, and I think people in DIY and the industry respect that. I do think this would obviously been a different story if Dan had gotten a heads up before hand.

If pedals and circuits were as ridiculously copyrights protected as music and digital media we might not even be having this conversation as there might not even be a Madbean Pedals. Or forum.

Quote
Ultimately though, if Dan and thorpy are going to rerelease some of these pedals this whole JHS thing could be good for drumming up some press for them. Pedal buyers listen to Josh, and him doing this is gonna bring some more attention to Danís work.

I suspect what probably stopped most people from getting Lovetone clones is that they are ridiculously tweakable and pot and switch infested. Ultimately I believe people much prefer a one knob phaser like the Phase 90 or Small Stone over the Doppleganger. Stick too many knobs and switches on a pedal and you'll scare some people off.

Just for a small comparison of the market, let's ask Brian what his top selling PCBs are. I'm gonna bet that it is in the Fuzz/OD side of the house.

The point I am making is that the world may not need "yet another fuzz/OD" however, they always seem to be the best selling boxes/PCBs out there. What does that tell you?

It's not my fault people keep buying into the hype of yet another fuzz/OD pedal. X has just released a new Y fuzz/OD! I gots to have it! Said pretty much EVERYONE on TGP.  And I am guilty of that too, I have whole banana boxes full of fuzz and OD pedals that I built. Which is why I can say that they pretty much all sound the same to me. And I don't blame Madbean and all the other PCB sellers for catering to that market. Where there is demand, supply will always follow.

Hasn't (nearly) everything JHS released been a clone of something anyway? Devi Ever had a topic on Diystompboxes listing most of the JHS pedals and what they are clones of. I guess there are only so many different ways to make a fuzz/od.

JHS has always been synonymous with (slightly) modded clones. Almost every thread where people asked if anyone knew the schematic to a JHS pedal the reply was almost always just take pedal X and change value Y to Z. I really dig his pedal and guitar vids though, he's really found a nice fun entertaining style.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: LaceSensor on October 01, 2019, 03:15:27 AM
Heres the internals.
SMD as expected. I wonder if they are BC549C transistors (well, 849C)

Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: matmosphere on October 01, 2019, 03:28:15 AM
I can totally get why Dan Coggins is upset. A lot of other industries donít work this way at all, even the record industry. If he had, for example, written a hit song then anyone who wanted to rerelease that song would have to pay him royalties and give credit.

Lovetone really stands out because of how creative and innovative their designs were, and I think people in DIY and the industry respect that. I do think this would obviously been a different story if Dan had gotten a heads up before hand.

If pedals and circuits were as ridiculously copyrights protected as music and digital media we might not even be having this conversation as there might not even be a Madbean Pedals. Or forum.


Yeah, I get that, but part of me thinks thatís okay. The other side is that we might have more stuff like Run Off Groove, or Escobedoís Circuit snippets, and that would be plenty fine by me. It would surely be a smaller community though, which would be ashamed.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: madbean on October 01, 2019, 10:20:27 AM
Well dang I drew up a schematic only to realize I was looking at the Brown Source not the Big Cheese! The BC looks a lot more interesting.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: skyled on October 01, 2019, 02:43:27 PM
Well dang I drew up a schematic only to realize I was looking at the Brown Source not the Big Cheese! The BC looks a lot more interesting.

Doug Hammond did a version of the Brown Source called the Tone Source. Supposedly it's a little more versatile but from what I understand, the effect is still very subtle.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: LaceSensor on October 01, 2019, 03:58:25 PM
Doug hammonds tone source is pretty neat actually
I like the ďtwankĒ mode a lot
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: digi2t on October 14, 2019, 05:40:13 PM
deleted
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: madbean on October 14, 2019, 05:48:44 PM
So if the "Big Cheese" is cloned as the "Cheese Ball".. will JHS release a Lovetone envelope filter clone called the "Big Meat?"

It's gotta be the Meaty Balls

BOOM!

(https://assets.bigcartel.com/product_images/210073945/DSCF5517.JPG?auto=format&fit=max&w=600)

The JHS version will be called Ballmeat because that's even worse.
Title: Re: Lovetone re-enters the mainstream (kinda)
Post by: Muadzin on October 15, 2019, 01:11:36 AM
Chef's salty chocolate balls would also have been acceptable.