All the talk of upcoming phasers reminded me of an old phaser I have that sounds really really good, really thick and watery and drippy, distinctly different from a phase 90, and I realized I'd never actually looked inside. I had always assumed a straight clone but it turns out that's not exactly the case.
It's a DOD Phasor 401 and it uses J113's and TL022's.
Anybody have any experience with using the J113 in a phaser?
I have no experience with phasers in general, but I have a bunch of J113 unused, so this is interesting...
I would say that the use of the transistors in a phaser is very different from a distortion pedal, so in terms of sound is not so critical, given that they are properly matched.
Please correct me if this is just gibberish ;D
Actually, I was planning to use the J113 in the switching part of an echo project, they shouldn't really make any difference there, but I have enough for a little phaser ;)
EDIT: I just checked the schematic with a phase45 and they are really close, there's only a couple of resistors different (and the fets and op-amp of course).
Pics of the actual pedal
Sorry folks, I'm learning out loud... :)
After looking at the schematic a little closer, it looks like the 401 is using more gain at each stage and doesn't use transistor for any gain before mixing at the output. Could that account for more of the sonic differences than the J113's?
Also, when comparing the 401 to the MXR, I noticed in the Electrosmash Phase 90 analysis that they mention the following about the transistor in the output stage: "Later circuit revisions (Block Logo), included a capacitor C11 from base to collector. It is a Miller Capacitor which shapes the high-frequency response (roll-off the highs) providing a dominant pole compensation preventing oscillation." I have a 90's Phase90 and the high end roll-off is very noticeable but in a very pleasant way. I had asked a question a while back about how this was achieved so I guess this answers it. ;D
The J-FET is used as a variable resistor, it's not really there for its 'sound'.
The way they're used however, is different to the phase 90 and more like the phase 45.
I haven't compared the phase stage values, perhaps they're different too, that will affect where in the spectrum the phasing is occurring.
Quote from: Scruffie on April 28, 2020, 04:03:21 PM
The J-FET is used as a variable resistor, it's not really there for its 'sound'.
The way they're used however, is different to the phase 90 and more like the phase 45.
I haven't compared the phase stage values, perhaps they're different too, that will affect where in the spectrum the phasing is occurring.
Thanks!
Wow, I've never looked at a 45 schematic and did not realize that the 45 had differences other than the 2 vs 4 stages. It then appears that the dod 401 is actually a dod 201 with 2 extra stages rather than a straight 90 clone. That makes more sense now.
also, sorry, I did not word my question about the J113 very well. I was more referring to the way that they may, or may not effect the sweep and not sure if they have any impact on where the notches are. The 401 seems to have a very smooth sine sweep and more low mids.
Edit: I did find this statement on another forum post:
"There are subtle differences between the 45 and the 90. The 90 is not just a 4 stage 45, the 45 is not just half a 90.
The 45 has a JFET gate-drain feedback circuit which cuts the JFET distortion a lot, making it sound much smoother,
whereas the arrangement in a 90 is much simpler."
Quote from: Aentons on April 28, 2020, 10:04:24 AM
Also, when comparing the 401 to the MXR, I noticed in the Electrosmash Phase 90 analysis that they mention the following about the transistor in the output stage: "Later circuit revisions (Block Logo), included a capacitor C11 from base to collector. It is a Miller Capacitor which shapes the high-frequency response (roll-off the highs) providing a dominant pole compensation preventing oscillation." I have a 90's Phase90 and the high end roll-off is very noticeable but in a very pleasant way. I had asked a question a while back about how this was achieved so I guess this answers it. ;D
Just a bit more about the C11 cap in the output stage. I found a schematic that has the value. 0.0068u.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dzE2CtP292y8wDLZHJTMDfJa_Z1EALDxz6J5dRpFUO629f5gnUibtZMoi91Dnx_YC9odWH0zwhkJeIFzj7oDc5vNx4ABjh6IHb4uh2GGSDaTHf9wlxvy59KuzrC36OJAmWb8mDR0H1JNwECc0_SkjrFg=w1100-h600-no)
Now back to some semblance of the original question... put a different way. ;D
It seems like the J113's may be fine to use in place of the 5952/5457's, so why aren't those ever recommend in their place or why don't you really see anyone using them for this purpose?
I can think of several reasons;
1) DIYers can be stubborn when it comes to 'special' part choices.
2) Up until relatively recently, those were very easy to acquire J-FET's.
3) There's plenty of J-FET's good for phasers, but the specs may not get the best out of a specific design.
4) You can still get the ones mentioned in SMD form and people migrated to that.
5) Engineers/Designers/Manufacturers/People moved on from J-FET's as they're a complete pain in the ass.
Quote from: Scruffie on April 29, 2020, 03:51:16 AM
I can think of several reasons;
1) DIYers can be stubborn when it comes to 'special' part choices.
2) Up until relatively recently, those were very easy to acquire J-FET's.
3) There's plenty of J-FET's good for phasers, but the specs may not get the best out of a specific design.
4) You can still get the ones mentioned in SMD form and people migrated to that.
5) Engineers/Designers/Manufacturers/People moved on from J-FET's as they're a complete pain in the ass.
Yep, I get it. You are totally right.
I was just curious if there is anything in particular that is not suitable or would need to be compensated for with these for that application since they are about the cheapest thruhole jfet that Mouser has right now.
BTW, I'm gearing up for a VFE tractor beam build and am a bit nervous about it
I used j113 in Phase 90 clone, works just fine.
Quote from: sharpan.sv on May 09, 2020, 07:41:59 AM
I used j113 in Phase 90 clone, works just fine.
Just reading the tractor beam doc, it was built around the recommended jfets more or less.
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Ok, so I got some J113's and put a matched set in my tractor beam, biased it as best as I could by ear, and it's distorting. I chose a set matched at -1.39
I see the VFE site has this to say:
"The input stage buffers the signal to strengthen it for the signal split coming next. Technically, there is a small volume cut in this stage to improve the headroom of the phaser, but later stages makeup any volume loss in this buffer."
"The Tractor Beam uses JFETs to change the center of the phase shift. In this configuration, JFETs have a natural clean headroom limit. If the phaser section is distorting, try reducing the input volume."
Is that what is happening? Do I need to adjust the volume cut in the input section to accommodate the J113s? It looks like that is done by increasing 470k R1 R22. Does that sound correct?
To clarify... I'm playing my build right next to my production Enterprise v2.5. I'm using the same guitar(s), amp, and PedalPower2+. When I turn the guitar volume down, the distortion goes away. I have a strong lfo and I can hear both turnarounds clearly, but the distortion happens mainly in the middle of the sweep. The prod vfe build is not distorted hardly at all.
Here are my voltages:
OPA2134
1 = 0 mV
2 = 0.1 mV
3 = 0.1 mV
4 = -7.53 V
5 = 0.1 mV
6 = 0 mV
7 = 19.6 mV
8 = 8.25 V
LM358
1 = ---
2 = ---
3 = ---
4 = -7.53 V
5 = ---
6 = ---
7 = ---
8 = 8.26 V
TLE2074
1 = -6.1 mV
2 = -1.7 mV
3 = 0.1 mV
4 = 8.25 V
5 = 0.1 mV
6 = 0.3 mV
7 = 1.5 mV
8 = -15.4 mV
9 = -2 mV
10 = 0 mV
11 = -7.53 mv
12 = 0.1 mV
13 = 2.6 mV
14 = 11.3 mV
J113 = G,S,D (removed)
Q1 = ---,0.1mv,0.1mv
Q2 = ---,0.1mv,0.1mv
Q3 = ---,0.1mv,0.1mv
Q4 = ---,0.1mv,0.1mv
Power from the source measures at 9.42V
Here are the voltages for the VFE prod build for comparison:
OPA2134
1 = 0.5 mV
2 = 0.5 mV
3 = 0.2 mV
4 = -8.15 V
5 = 0.2 mV
6 = 0.7 mV
7 = 8.8 mV
8 = 8.85 V
LM358
1 = ---
2 = ---
3 = ---
4 = -8.15 V
5 = ---
6 = ---
7 = ---
8 = 8.86 V
TLE2074
1 = -3.0 mV
2 = -0.3 mV
3 = 0.1 mV
4 = 8.85 V
5 = 0.5 mV
6 = 0.8 mV
7 = 2.2 mV
8 = -4.0 mV
9 = 0.3 mV
10 = 0.4 mV
11 = -8.15 mv
12 = 0.5 mV
13 = 0.7 mV
14 = 5.7 mV
2n5952 = G,S,D (not removed)
Q1 = ---,0.4mv,0.4mv
I couldnt get a good read on some of these
----------------------------------
Also, for the input gain, R22(470k) and R23(390k) look to be the same in both builds
---------------------------
And a screenshot to compare
Left is VFE prod and right is mine
I put this set of 2n5952 from small bear in it and it is slightly less distorted but it's still there, still noticeably more than the VFE prod build. The bias trimmer is now fully maxed out to get these into the correct range. It was just lower higher than mid with the j113s
Here is a quick video of the difference
Both of these have 2n5952
[youtube width=480]https://youtu.be/M5apzyOt2tQ[/youtube]
And here is a video with J113 vs 2n5952
[youtube width=480]https://youtu.be/XC9xG65Zk4s[/youtube]
I noticed the volume is considerably louder when you activate the tractor beam. What happens when you turn the volume down? Also, when you wail on a phaser, it will sound like that. The phase 90 does the same thing. If you, or any guitar player, is going to be wailing on it like that, usually distortion is involved anyway. I like the 5952s better than the J113s. Around 5:27, I think you'll hear the same distortion coming in, no distortion pedal, this is straight. It's just the nature of the beast.
Quote from: jimilee on January 12, 2021, 05:38:01 PM
I noticed the volume is considerably louder when you activate the tractor beam. What happens when you turn the volume down? Also, when you wail on a phaser, it will sound like that. The phase 90 does the same thing. If you, or any guitar player, is going to be wailing on it like that, usually distortion is involved anyway. I like the 5952s better than the J113s. Around 5:27, I think you'll hear the same distortion coming in, no distortion pedal, this is straight. It's just the nature of the beast.
That's just the output level trimpot not set quite right. Turn it up, turn it down, distortion sounds the same. I forgot to demonstrate that turning the guitar volume down does clean it up.
Sorry for the wailing... just trying to show what the extreme input did to the signal. Im ok with the distortion being there, that's part of why I like the phase 90 so much, but I think it is noticeably more extreme with the J113.
Im not quite sure I understand why the distortion is better/worse with different JFets as long as they fit the spec and are biased properly. Some people don't have an issue with j113s in a phase 90 and some people have trouble with 2n5952's in them. It seems to be hit and miss. I'm just looking to understand the possible differences and potential fixes.
I'm going to try some different chips to rule out any trouble with those...
Quote from: Aentons on January 12, 2021, 06:27:42 PM
Quote from: jimilee on January 12, 2021, 05:38:01 PM
I noticed the volume is considerably louder when you activate the tractor beam. What happens when you turn the volume down? Also, when you wail on a phaser, it will sound like that. The phase 90 does the same thing. If you, or any guitar player, is going to be wailing on it like that, usually distortion is involved anyway. I like the 5952s better than the J113s. Around 5:27, I think you'll hear the same distortion coming in, no distortion pedal, this is straight. It's just the nature of the beast.
That's just the output level trimpot not set quite right. Turn it up, turn it down, distortion sounds the same. I forgot to demonstrate that turning the guitar volume down does clean it up.
Sorry for the wailing... just trying to show what the extreme input did to the signal. Im ok with the distortion being there, that's part of why I like the phase 90 so much, but I think it is noticeably more extreme with the J113.
Im not quite sure I understand why the distortion is better/worse with different JFets as long as they fit the spec and are biased properly. Some people don't have an issue with j113s in a phase 90 and some people have trouble with 2n5952's in them. It seems to be hit and miss. I'm just looking to understand the possible differences and potential fixes.
I'm going to try some different chips to rule out any trouble with those...
Hey, I get it. I guess it just comes down to parts and part quality. You have a significant amount of gain in the input section I believe, that's what it sounds like to me.
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It occurred to me that one of the differences between mine and the prod build is that I have the suggested noise reduction cap across the diode. I used a 22uF. So I checked the voltage on the zener diode and this is what I got:
VFE prod = -3.32 V
mine = -2.52 V
I clipped one leg of the cap from the diode but I still get -2.52.
That voltage doesn't move when I tweak the trimmer.
That value seems low.
I also measure 2.06v across trim pot which seems low as well
Edit: I posted a question specifically about the zener over here. Turns out, that's not the issue.
https://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=32271.msg310154#msg310154
I did some searching an found a great answer about jfet distortion from RG here:
https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=39904.0
"The resistance of a FET channel also varies with the applied Vds. This variation of channel resistance with Vds is smaller than with the Vgs, but it does exist. This variation of channel resistance with both Vgs and Vds leads to intermodulation of the signal with the LFO in phasers. The distortion is unrelated to the notches and peaks. The signal through each phase stage gets distorted by the intermodulation. Small enough signals are not distorted by objectionable amounts. The exact details of this intermodulation varies from FET to FET."
That makes a lot a sense.
I'm still trying to understand why my diy and prod TB builds have noticeably different amounts of distortion when played side by side on the same rig.
At this point, I can only only assume that the JFets in the prod build have more carefully chosen(higher?) Vgs(off) and possibly other characteristics.
I found a chart of some mitigation techniques that keep the input and jfet voltage interaction to a minimum. #1 is like the Phase90. The P45/401 technique is not shown here but seems similar to #2
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dQMBEExKJEmdUzWdyRrwNVYnJCr5RdmnMNXG1yv54F545CqUsK0eDo-IM4wiWo3wkAKGiwoG8pRSlOOXcSMntzpNLtrBpb9EQr3p_vLrcOd6-H3prv73wUKhlPcZMy4FYbJBm2E2Ri5JTxkQBdSxKAlw=s750-no)
TLDR:
The extra parts around the jfets in the Phase45/DOD401 are there to lessen the interaction of the guitar's input signal on the JFet's variable resistance which (if not present) would cause intermodulation distortion in the output signal. So for the Phase90 you have to choose your JFets more carefully and not just match vgsoff
Right, as RG graphed out on this page:
http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/fetmatch/fetmatch.htm
2.5 is a good starting range. That's why was surprised and mentioned the low VGs jfets you matched in one of my previous responses. I knew I'd seen what you were saying about higher VGs before. Nice research.
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Quote from: jimilee on January 16, 2021, 11:21:48 AM
Right, as RG graphed out on this page:
http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/fetmatch/fetmatch.htm
2.5 is a good starting range. That's why was surprised and mentioned the low VGs jfets you matched in one of my previous responses. I knew I'd seen what you were saying about higher VGs before. Nice research.
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Hmm.. maybe I'm reading it wrong but I thought that article is just talking about matching vgsoff numbers and the 2.5 range just happened to be where that particular set of 5485's had good matched groups. It makes no mention of specific ideal ranges or whether you should look for matches near the minimum or maximum rating.
I think I remember reading somewhere RG did mention an ideal range
for a specific jfet. It was maybe something like -1.4 - 1.8v. but ( I think ) any ideal range would depend on which type of jfet you are talking about and (for instance) that's why you can use really low vgs j201s. Anyone please feel free to correct me. I'm still confused about how to identify a good range for a specific type jfet (like the J113) that would minimise the intermodulation distortion. RG's comment... "Small enough signals are not distorted by objectionable amounts" makes it sound like the LFO bias voltage should be as low as you can get it, but I'm not sure. I think I read that the lfo voltage wiggles within half a volt. So, if that is the case, then (it seems like) to minimize IM distortion you would want a vgsoff of -0.5v (or just above) in all cases.
I'll see if I can find the article.
Edit: Here is part of RG's comment from this post:
https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=79931.0
"I would advise using 2N5485 if you can find it. It's in current production. But if you simply must use a BF245 (temporarily, while you find the best parts, maybe), use the BF245A. Match the JFETs for Vgsoff. I like most JFETs at about 1.4 to 1.8V in this circuit, so get a set where they all measure the same, and within that range."
<edited - I meant to say 5-6x more sensitive not 50x lol>
I just built myself a phase 90 clone using j113. I was a unhappy with some of the tone (and clipping distortion) I was getting so I used Tina sim to simulate the difference between the "ideal" (ha) versions of each jfet. I swept the notch up and down and discovered that that (according to the sim) the j113 is about 5-6x more sensitive across the parallel 22k than the 2n5952. the LFO voltage swing reaching the fet gate is about 250-300mv peak to peak, but I can make the whole j113 sweep in about 50mv. So to compensate I changed each of the parallel resistors for 4.7k and the 47nf caps on the non inverting input to the filter sweep op amps were changed to 220nf (to keep the filter frequency in the same place).
I'm much happier with this sweep tone, although its still clipping a bit. I think its due to the PNP collector voltage being too high, so its not swinging in the center of its range. I'll drop the collector resistance further (at 10k compared to original 56k atm) and let you know how I get on.
Also the 10k in series with the zener isn't enough to properly reverse bias the zener, so I used a 1k to give it enough current. I'm using a psu not a battery so I'm not bothered. It still only draws 6mA ish anyway which is hardly a lot.
Steve
Quote from: StevieF on January 20, 2021, 01:49:07 PM
I just built myself a phase 90 clone using j113. I was a unhappy with some of the tone (and clipping distortion) I was getting so I used Tina sim to simulate the difference between the "idea" (ha) versions of each jfet. I swept the notch up and down and discovered that that (according to the sim) the j113 is about 50x more sensitive across the parallel 22k than the 2n5952. the LFO voltage swing reaching the fet gate is about 250-300mv peak to peak, but I can make the whole j113 sweep in about 50mv. So to compensate I changed each of the parallel resistors for 4.7k and the 47nf caps on the non inverting input to the filter sweep op amps were changed to 220nf (to keep the filter frequency in the same place).
I'm much happier with this sweep tone, although its still clipping a bit. I think its due to the PNP collector voltage being too high, so its not swinging in the center of its range. I'll drop the collector resistance further (at 10k compared to original 56k atm) and let you know how I get on.
Also the 10k in series with the zener isn't enough to properly reverse bias the zener, so I used a 1k to give it enough current. I'm using a psu not a battery so I'm not bothered. It still only draws 6mA ish anyway which is hardly a lot.
Steve
Wow thanks, that's some awesome detective work there. Out of curiosity, did you happen to note a 2n5952 mV sweep range for comparison to the 50ma in the j113(or is that the 50x sensitivity you refered to)? Also, do you have a vgsoff measurement on the jfets you are actually using in the circuit?
I just edited my original post. I meant 5x not 50x. I was thinking of 50mv. lol
There was a model for the ideal 2N5952 in Tina so I used that. I found the voltage at its base 130ish Hz notch and adjusted the gate until the notch began to move and then used that as a starting point. I then gradually changed the voltage until the notch was up at 2khz and that was about 250-300mv, which is the swing voltage from the LFO that reaches the gates. I then just replaced the jfet with a j113 in the sim and did the same. It was about 50mv of difference on the gate to produce the same effect. So I reduced the R and C impedances to a 1/5 of what they were in the sim and it was pretty close. then I just translated that to the components on the board.
I don't have the vgsoff for the j113s I'm using no, but I used the op amp jfet matching circuit that is available, and they are all about 0.95v gs to produce a 10k resistance.