With the now available release of X-Vive's MN3005, will the DirtBag Deluxe be considered for putting back on the available for purchase list?
Lol!
It's funny that you posted this as I emailed MB 3 days ago and asked him if he had any of these boards left! Maybe the interest here will get a run of boards made. Fingers crossed!
I have 2 xvive 3005's that i'm itching to use so I'm definitely interested in the DB deluxe as well. Mainly because of the negative ground.
But...
https://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=29429.msg285244#msg285244
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I probably could do a negative ground version for use with the Xvive. It's just not something I've thought about. But, it wouldn't be too hard to do one that runs on +18v. Maybe even a 3-chip version for a bit extra delay.
If a negative ground revamp of the TR is the better path, then I am more than willing to wait
Isn't the total recall a remake of the dirt bag deluxe?
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Yes it is,
BUT
TR is a positive ground effect, DBD is a negative ground effect which lessens power supply issues.
Quote from: danfrank on June 08, 2020, 02:29:19 AM
TR is a positive ground effect, DBD is a negative ground effect which lessens power supply issues.
I could imagine that both the + ground and 24v requirement is a deal killer for some. Unfortunately, it is for me.
From the TR build doc:
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It's positive ground and it requires a wall-wart. There's no getting around it. If you want the true vintage DMM, you
have to design it to use a wall-wart or AC power plus a transformer. I use, and recommend, an actual EHX 24v
supply.
Yeah, DBD could easily be powered by a standard 9 volt neg center supply and a charge pump for 15v regulated.
BTW, have y'all looked into the LM2937 and LM2940 series of LDO voltage regulators? Only need 0.5 volts over regulated output voltage to work. These would be much better suited for the Road Rage and other similar charge pump voltage doublers than the old LM7815 regulators. All my LT1054 doublers put out around 17.5 volts which is marginal with the 7815 regulator.
Quote from: danfrank on June 08, 2020, 03:51:34 AM
Yeah, DBD could easily be powered by a standard 9 volt neg center supply and a charge pump for 15v regulated.
BTW, have y'all looked into the LM2937 and LM2940 series of LDO voltage regulators? Only need 0.5 volts over regulated output voltage to work. These would be much better suited for the Road Rage and other similar charge pump voltage doublers than the old LM7815 regulators. All my LT1054 doublers put out around 17.5 volts which is marginal with the 7815 regulator.
VFE builds call for LP2950 LDO regulators.
So did the DBD with a roadrage chargepump only run at at 15v?
Would there be anything stopping you from using 12v in and pumping up to 24v?
Quote from: Aentons on July 20, 2020, 05:19:01 PM
So did the DBD with a roadrage chargepump only run at at 15v?
Would there be anything stopping you from using 12v in and pumping up to 24v?
Depends if you like your $20 chips with a smoked flavouring.
Unless you mean for the regulator, in which case no, it should be okay at 24V.
Quote from: Scruffie on July 20, 2020, 06:46:41 PM
Quote from: Aentons on July 20, 2020, 05:19:01 PM
So did the DBD with a roadrage chargepump only run at at 15v?
Would there be anything stopping you from using 12v in and pumping up to 24v?
Depends if you like your $20 chips with a smoked flavouring.
Unless you mean for the regulator, in which case no, it should be okay at 24V.
Yep, just talking about external power into the regulator. I guess I'm just trying to understand why the need for 24v when it only really needs 15v. Isn't the extra 9v just wasted thru the regulator or does it play into the "true vintage" aspect in some other way that isn't obvious to an ambitious novice such as myself?
Edit: Sorry, just realized that it's not obvious that I am conflating the DBD and the TR into a single concept
Both versions technically only need 17V in to the regulator. But the Total Recall is based on the reissue DMM which used the EHX 24V regulator which unloaded puts out something like 30V, so yeah, most of it's just wasted.
The Dirtbag took + voltage relative to ground though, the Total Recall expects negative.
Quote from: Scruffie on July 20, 2020, 07:40:35 PM
Both versions technically only need 17V in to the regulator. But the Total Recall is based on the reissue DMM which used the EHX 24V regulator which unloaded puts out something like 30V, so yeah, most of it's just wasted.
The Dirtbag took + voltage relative to ground though, the Total Recall expects negative.
Thanks for the confirmation Scruf!
Heck, I believe I have an extra Dirtbag Deluxe board in the closet stash. Got two for me and my father but he bought a vintage Memory Man before I could finish his. Its populated and was working/biased just never put it in its case. Lol Had some trouble building them for sure but they were great pedals once up and running!
Dang, I have both. You can always have more delays.
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Ok, so I'm deliberating on whether or not to order a TR, since they are currently in stock, and maybe trying to adapt it to my needs.
Ignoring the voltage requirements for a moment....Would ithe TR still work in a multieffect enclosure with the power wires between effects daisy-chained? The other effects in the enclosure would have the regular negative ground. Would it need to be isolated in some way?
Would it be foolish to think of chaining two road rage boards?
Use the -9v tap off the first as the input for the second to get -18v and send that to the TR? Would that even work?
No, I do not recommend that. Build it as designed or find something else that suits your specific needs. You're probably just going to encounter a lot of trouble trying to rig some alternative power scheme.
Quote from: madbean on July 23, 2020, 03:54:09 AM
No, I do not recommend that. Build it as designed or find something else that suits your specific needs. You're probably just going to encounter a lot of trouble trying to rig some alternative power scheme.
Ok, thanks... just thinking out loud here. Are you recommending against using an
inverting charge pump in general for the TR? If i I were to use just a single pump with +18v in and use the -18v output for the TR. Would that be a viable solution?
LT1054 charge pumps have a max voltage input of 15 volts.
Have you looked at the Man o War Deluxe? The only thing the MOW doesn't do is feedback oscillation. The MOW modulation is more versital than the TR's modulation.
AND you could use a Road Rage and 12 volt regulator to power the MOW with 9 volts in (common pedal power)
Quote from: danfrank on July 23, 2020, 06:11:46 AM
LT1054 charge pumps have a max voltage input of 15 volts.
I did not realize that, thanks. I now see from the datasheet that it has a 1.1v drop as well so, even if I put +15v into the input, it would only give me around 13.9v which I assume is prob unacceptable for powering the bbd. Forgive my ignorance as I am fairly new to chargepumps, is there not another charge pump/inverter out there that would be acceptable for use with the TR if it is built as designed/recommended. I think the recommended EHX power adapter is 100mA. I don't see the power draw in the TR doc, but stinkfoot has the bigbox DMM draw at 41mA. Is that the maximum it needs or should there be a certain percentage of overhead to account for if I were to look for a suitable replacement for the LT1054?
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Have you looked at the Man o War Deluxe? The only thing the MOW doesn't do is feedback oscillation. The MOW modulation is more versital than the TR's modulation.
AND you could use a Road Rage and 12 volt regulator to power the MOW with 9 volts in (common pedal power)
I have looked at it and have very seriously considered just going that route, but... For the foreseeable future, I'm probably only gonna build one analog delay and have com to the realization that if Im going to spend the time doing it, might as well be the one I really want.
BTW, I'm trying to accomidate this beast. I've been working on it for a while. I definitely plan more than I build. It's slow going.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cTnEnV5bfUd48JbGmujXW_uNcdA-oZkG_9xxD8TD261iZBLu3QDaVruqT20SoSw07ieSwBYPzzmSZkhxmbkdtK9CWIQrgqj2H0a6JCsCtHLzr9rQCfllOL6QeEnkmi3MyCdHG-5BmiorPi8lsbtN-PGg=w1446-h1082-no)
I'm basically using a onespot type power (9v 1700mA) to it, it's actually using the P3 system from the amp over a TRS cable to the 1/4" jack on the pedal(the same jack is input for power, output for audio). So there is no dedicated power connection to the box. Just the TRS that carries audio and power, and then they are split using a stereo jack. Which is the IO/power module you see on the far right. I don't currently have any filtering after that so I should prob add a roadrage or other power board to it, and that why I keep harping on the TR requirements
I have about 30 boards in various stages of completion and they will all be modules for this. The TR is obviously the odd one out power wise so just trying to see if there are any accomodations that can be made for it to run as a module.
You would need a charge pump circuit capable of both inverting the 9V voltage to -9V, doubling it (with losses) to a minimum -17V and providing at least 50mA current supply.
You also need it to be high enough frequency and clean enough to not interact with the DMM's on board clock or any other clock based circuits you have running on the same power supply.
So to sum up, what you're asking for doesn't exist.
Quote from: Scruffie on July 23, 2020, 07:02:46 PM
You would need a charge pump circuit capable of both inverting the 9V voltage to -9V, doubling it (with losses) to a minimum -17V and providing at least 50mA current supply.
You also need it to be high enough frequency and clean enough to not interact with the DMM's on board clock or any other clock based circuits you have running on the same power supply.
So to sum up, what you're asking for doesn't exist.
Ok, just to make sure I'm out of luck on the TR....
What if I were able to just send +18v to get -18v? Are you saying an inverter that can handle 18v and output 50mA doesn't exist either?
The MAX634 might be able to. I've never used it but it does appear to meet some of the needed criteria.
Well if you had 18V from a supply (not another charge pump) then you could use a 15V regulator, lift its ground pin by one diode drop to 15.6V to avoid the 16V terminal voltage and make up for the internal losses, in to a LT1054 and invert and ditch the on board regulator from the total recall.
Quote from: Scruffie on July 23, 2020, 09:18:52 PM
Well if you had 18V from a supply (not another charge pump) then you could use a 15V regulator, lift its ground pin by one diode drop to 15.6V to avoid the 16V terminal voltage and make up for the internal losses, in to a LT1054 and invert and ditch the on board regulator from the total recall.
Hmm, very interesting idea... With it's absolutely max being 16v for the LT1054 and the recommended operating range topping out at 15v, would sending 15.6v into it be running it hot and chance it burning up
Quote from: madbean on July 23, 2020, 08:55:01 PM
The MAX634 might be able to. I've never used it but it does appear to meet some of the needed criteria.
Thanks for the suggestion. That one looks like the absolute max is 18v and the top recommended is 16.5v. How close can you typically get these things to the max before they are no worky?
Quote from: Aentons on July 23, 2020, 11:21:30 PM
Quote from: madbean on July 23, 2020, 08:55:01 PM
The MAX634 might be able to. I've never used it but it does appear to meet some of the needed criteria.
Thanks for the suggestion. That one looks like the absolute max is 18v and the top recommended is 16.5v. How close can you typically get these things to the max before they are no worky?
The Max634 has adjustable output so you you should be able to supply it +9v and get -15 out with 50mA or more available. At least, that's what I'm getting from the datasheet. It looks like it's internal oscillator can be set to 40kHz so same ballpark as the LT1054.
I suspect using it is going to be above Aentons pay grade (I wouldn't be keen on having to use it!), it's less a charge pump and more a SMPS, it'll need specific parts choice and very good layout.
For a chip from 1986 there's not much information on its use.
Quote from: Scruffie on July 24, 2020, 09:23:55 AM
I suspect using it is going to be above Aentons pay grade (I wouldn't be keen on having to use it!), it's less a charge pump and more a SMPS, it'll need specific parts choice and very good layout.
For a chip from 1986 there's not much information on its use.
Unfortunately, you might be right... Plus, the IC is roughly $5 and it requires an inductor that costs about the same or more, so that might be a relatively expensive solution.
Thanks guys!, I'll definitely start looking into some of these ideas.
...sure would be nice if there were a negative ground version of the TR that was maybe on the drawing board... (: hint,hint,wink,wink,nudge,nudge,sorry :)
Lol!
Hey Brian... That's 3+ people interested in the DBD boards...
Quote from: danfrank on July 25, 2020, 12:44:08 AM
Lol!
Hey Brian... That's 3+ people interested in the DBD boards...
I bet he's too chicken to fit it in a 125B with stacked boards...
Oh man, the gloves are off.
Perhaps you could sort out fabbed versions of thomasha's tinytiny Memory Man?
Quote from: alanp on July 25, 2020, 01:48:35 PM
Perhaps you could sort out fabbed versions of thomasha's tinytiny Memory Man?
Wow those are small. I cant even imaging trying to wrap my head around the complications of something like that.
For me, going for the modular thing actual helps to eliminate some of the hurdles in going to smaller enclosures by doing away with audiio and power jacks. They are just jumper pins with modular.
Scruf and Co. have a new delay project that may be interesting to some others... Check it out if you haven't already.
https://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=31518.0