It's all fabbed up. I set the trimmers and pots for biasing and hooked it up for testing and got a signal. I started probing after disconnecting my output. I started by probing the "In" pad and have a strong signal. I probed the "Out" pad and it was a little weaker. Turned the "Level" clockwise and the output was more faint. All the way counter-clockwise produces the loudest output. So there's the first problem.
Next I probed pin #3 of IC4...nothing.
I then probed pin #3 of IC5...nothing.
Any ideas?
(http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae285/guyskankrye/IMG_4376.jpg)
(http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae285/guyskankrye/IMG_4375.jpg)
Check the following pins for signal strength and let us know what you find:
IC1: pin1 and pin7
IC2: pin7
IC6: pin7
Which version are you building?
3005 or 3205 version?
Done the correct mods to work with the version you're building?
All ICs properly socketed?
What are your voltages on all the ICs? Especially the BBDs & 4047.
Have you actually tried to bias the BBDs, if they're not biased you wont get an output.
Edit:Bean Beat me there.
REALLY weird gremlin. I walked away from it, came back, and now it's working fine other than biasing adjustments. I'm going to bed now and will mess with it later.
I'm building the 3205.
I'm having trouble getting the biasing set well. I got bias 1 to sound pretty clean but I couldn't get all the distortion out of bias 2. I got it as clean as I could but it still sounds pretty distorted. I would guess it's between 1 and two o'clock.
Also, when I turn the "Delay" and "Feedback" pots it starts oscillating EARLY in it's turn. Maybe around a ¼ of a turn on the "Feedback" pot.
Any tips?
Quote from: tenwatt on December 06, 2011, 06:24:45 AM
I'm having trouble getting the biasing set well. I got bias 1 to sound pretty clean but I couldn't get all the distortion out of bias 2. I got it as clean as I could but it still sounds pretty distorted. I would guess it's between 1 and two o'clock.
Also, when I turn the "Delay" and "Feedback" pots it starts oscillating EARLY in it's turn. Maybe around a ¼ of a turn on the "Feedback" pot.
Any tips?
I could be wrong but the gain trimmers set the feedback onset. you need to incrementally adjust them from zero with the feedback control all the way up.
With regards the BIasing, are you starting with everything set up as per the BOM instructions?
are you working with an audio probe and probing the suggested pins?
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 06, 2011, 06:28:25 AMI could be wrong but the gain trimmers set the feedback onset. you need to incrementally adjust them from zero with the feedback control all the way up.
With regards the BIasing, are you starting with everything set up as per the BOM instructions?
are you working with an audio probe and probing the suggested pins?
I'll mess with the gain trimmers some more tonight but the answer is "yes" to the rest of your questions.
balance is in the noon position?
cant say I really know what I am talking about but this might help when I come to try mine, hopefully this evening ;)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x374/LaceSensor1/Dirtbag%20DMM/P1020655.jpg)
Gain 1 & Bias 2 will be highly interactive, this is a flaw in the design so keep playing with that.
Did you remember to make R11 & 12 47k in the Compander?
Once that's sorted adjust Gain 2 to stop run away repeats.
Quote from: Scruffie on December 06, 2011, 11:08:23 AM
Gain 1 & Bias 2 will be highly interactive, this is a flaw in the design so keep playing with that.
Did you remember to make R11 & 12 47k in the Compander?
Once that's sorted adjust Gain 2 to stop run away repeats.
R11 and R12 are, indeed, 47k. I'll mess with the trimmers some more and report back.
I wish I knew how to use an oscilloscope. I just learned that there is one here at work I could use. :-\
Okay...when I sweep through the bias pots while probing the #3 pins (as described) it always sounds like there is a little bit of a fuzz. It goes from a LOT to a LITTLE but it NEVER sounds clean.
It seems to be working well other than the fuzz sound.
How are you testing. Guitar (type?), sine wave? etc...
Quote from: gtr2 on December 06, 2011, 06:04:20 PM
How are you testing. Guitar (type?), sine wave? etc...
PRS Custom 24 (humbuckers).
I know it's the simple things that always get me.
I don't think I can see any barrier between the backs of your pots and the board. Maybe something is grounding out on the pots ...
Little test for ya, try swapping the BBD positions and see if the first remains clean.
I just say this cause I once had a 3208 that distorted like hell, something to rule out.
Then post voltages and check all your values in that area.
Try with a strat or something too just to rule out your pickups overdriving things (I doubt it but it's always good to rule stuff out).
Quote from: jubal81 on December 06, 2011, 09:11:23 PM
I know it's the simple things that always get me.
I don't think I can see any barrier between the backs of your pots and the board. Maybe something is grounding out on the pots ...
I do have double sided tape between the pots and the PCB.
Quote from: Scruffie on December 07, 2011, 12:03:16 AM
Little test for ya, try swapping the BBD positions and see if the first remains clean.
I just say this cause I once had a 3208 that distorted like hell, something to rule out.
Then post voltages and check all your values in that area.
Try with a strat or something too just to rule out your pickups overdriving things (I doubt it but it's always good to rule stuff out).
Neither BBD gets completely clean. The both have a bit of a fuzziness to them. IC5 is just much worse. I swapped them out and the results seemed to be the same. I used a Tele and got the same results.
I'm also noticing a whine in the last half of the turn of the "Delay" pot.
Voltages
IC4
1.8mV
4.72V
6.58V
6.58V
7.94V
5.96V
4.72V
8.2V
IC5
1.8mV
4.72V
6.49V
6.49V
7.94V
5.91V
4.72V
8.2V
Delay Pot
4.72
4.65
4.65
Signal seems a bit hot coming off pins 3&4 of each BBD. I'll need to get some voltages from mine for comparison.
One possible solution to reduce distortion is to reduce the signal input to the BBD's even further. This is untested but here are a couple of ideas:
Temporarily disconnect R18 to see if the overload LED is having an influence on noise.
Increase R21 to 100k and reduce C14 to 3n3.
Lower R11 and R12 down to 33k.
Also, do you have the two GAIN trimmers turned all the way down?
Quote from: madbean on December 07, 2011, 04:57:56 AMAlso, do you have the two GAIN trimmers turned all the way down?
Yup. Gain both gain Trimmers are all the way counter-clockwise. I don't have all the parts you recomended so I'll have to order them and get back with you.
What about the "Delay" pot? Do the voltages seem right there? That whine has me wondering if maybe I have a bad joint somewhere. Should I try reflowing the pins of the pot?
*EDIT* I was looking over the circuit this morning before work (cleaning between solder joints and checking for sold joints) and noticed tht IC2 and IC9 weren't pressed all the way down into their sockets. I didn't have time before work to test it again, and I don't know if that has anything to do with anything, but I thought I'd share.
disappointingly mine is behaving the same way.
v3205, jumpers are correct. Both delay chips sound distorted as hell.
At some points in the bias travel, I get no signal too.
Hopefully there is a fix for this.
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 07, 2011, 11:12:41 AM
disappointingly mine is behaving the same way.
v3205, jumpers are correct. Both delay chips sound distorted as hell.
At some points in the bias travel, I get no signal too.
Hopefully there is a fix for this.
Well no signal with the blend on fully wet would be normal when twisting the bias control, BBDs only work within bias.
@tenwatt
IC4
1.8mV
4.72V
6.58V
6.58V
7.94V
5.96V
4.72V
8.2V
Pins 2 & 6 should be the same voltage for a 50% duty cycle square wave, these are rather different... something wrong between your clock & bbds.
Your ground (Pin 1) shouldn't have voltage on it... being ground and all.
Pin 5 is a littleee off (D2 should drop about 0.6v to make Vdd 14/15th of Vgg) but it shouldn't hurt I don't think...
Keep looking, hopefully pushing down IC2 & 9 has solved your issues.
ill have to do my voltages later.
For now colour me gutted :-\
just to add mine is doing all the same as Tenwatts, almost to a tee, apart from my volume control seems to work fine.
Even does the whine at high delay settings.
im a bit cautious to start unsoldering parts on the board mostly cos Im a bit rubbish at it.
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 07, 2011, 12:13:27 PM
just to add mine is doing all the same as Tenwatts, almost to a tee, apart from my volume control seems to work fine.
Even does the whine at high delay settings.
im a bit cautious to start unsoldering parts on the board mostly cos Im a bit rubbish at it.
You're probably just pushing too much delay out the pedal (perhaps your 2 x 120pF caps = more than 240pF?) and introducing clock whine at the high delay settings.
I read about the measurements of many original Deluxe Memory Mans delay time, 400mS was an average, 550mS might be a little bit of an overstatement.
No need to start unsoldering yet! Post the voltages up and lets have a look.
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 07, 2011, 12:13:27 PM
just to add mine is doing all the same as Tenwatts, almost to a tee, apart from my volume control seems to work fine.
My volume works now too. My ONLY problems are the distorted BBDs and the whine in my "Delay" pot.
Thanx for looking at that stuff, Scruffie. I'll be checking things out as soon as I get home.
Quote from: Scruffie on December 07, 2011, 12:19:40 PM
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 07, 2011, 12:13:27 PM
just to add mine is doing all the same as Tenwatts, almost to a tee, apart from my volume control seems to work fine.
Even does the whine at high delay settings.
im a bit cautious to start unsoldering parts on the board mostly cos Im a bit rubbish at it.
You're probably just pushing too much delay out the pedal (perhaps your 2 x 120pF caps = more than 240pF?) and introducing clock whine at the high delay settings.
I read about the measurements of many original Deluxe Memory Mans delay time, 400mS was an average, 550mS might be a little bit of an overstatement.
No need to start unsoldering yet! Post the voltages up and lets have a look.
Sounds reasonable, hopefully.
So, to be clear, if that 240 is LOWER than 240 it could potentially be a good thing, but would give lower delay times (i dont care so long as they sound nice, 300ms is plenty for me). BUT if its over 240pF itll potentially give rise to shit sound.
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 07, 2011, 01:17:02 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on December 07, 2011, 12:19:40 PM
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 07, 2011, 12:13:27 PM
just to add mine is doing all the same as Tenwatts, almost to a tee, apart from my volume control seems to work fine.
Even does the whine at high delay settings.
im a bit cautious to start unsoldering parts on the board mostly cos Im a bit rubbish at it.
You're probably just pushing too much delay out the pedal (perhaps your 2 x 120pF caps = more than 240pF?) and introducing clock whine at the high delay settings.
I read about the measurements of many original Deluxe Memory Mans delay time, 400mS was an average, 550mS might be a little bit of an overstatement.
No need to start unsoldering yet! Post the voltages up and lets have a look.
Sounds reasonable, hopefully.
So, to be clear, if that 240 is LOWER than 240 it could potentially be a good thing, but would give lower delay times (i dont care so long as they sound nice, 300ms is plenty for me). BUT if its over 240pF itll potentially give rise to shit sound.
That's about the long and the short of it.
The 5k6 resistor, Delay pot & 240pF all contribute to the delay time, push the clock too much (i.e. more delay) it'll become audible.
The lower the delay time the better the bandwidth too so your 300mS would be cleaner than your 500mS.
why dont I just drop a 220pF in there or something then?
My DMM wont read capacitance. Worth a shot or am I dreaming?
Doing voltage now...
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 07, 2011, 01:58:04 PM
why dont I just drop a 220pF in there or something then?
My DMM wont read capacitance. Worth a shot or am I dreaming?
Doing voltage now...
Yeah may as well, it still might be too high a value though (Ceramics at 20+/-% Tollerance means that could be up to 266pF).
Okay, I'm getting excited now. After pushing the ICs down it's sounding GOOOOOOOD. The only dilemma is if I punch a power chord firmly it breaks up and sounds all fuzz like. I only rolled the "Gain" trimmers up enough to get the oscillation but should I back them off a bit to get rid of that?
The whining in the "Delay" pot is still there BUT it goes away when I touch the "Level" pot. I'm thinking that it's a grounding issue that will go away when I box it. Do you guys agree?
Ill give that a stab in a sec
Here are my reported voltages
VC - 8.99V from a DC brick
IC1 TL072cn
1-4.82
2-3.96
3-4.72
4-0
5-4.37
6-4.83
7-4.83
8-8.98
IC3 TL072cn
1-4.82
2-4.82
3-4.72
4-0
5-4.67
6-4.83
7-4.83
8-9.97
IC8 TL072cn
1-4.82
2-4.82
3-4.67
4-0
5-7.31
6-7.46
7-8.05
8-8.98
IC6 TL072cn
1-4.15
2-4.15
3-4.04
4-0
5-3.67
6-5.04
7-5.26
8-8.98
IC7 TL062cp
1-3.3 to 5.6
2-4.68
3-4.6 to 4.9
4-0
5-4.68
6-4.33 (strangely jumps down from 4.9 ish, repeatable when remove and add DMM probe...stays at 4.3)
7-4.5 to 4.7
8-8.98
IC4 CA v3205D
1-0
2-4.31 to 4.32
3-4.66 to 4.67
4-4.68
5-8.28
6-4.30
7-3.93
8-7.90
IC5 CA v3205D
1-0
2-4.31 to 4.32
3-4.49 to 4.50
4-4.50
5-8.27
6-4.30
7-4.15
8-7.90
IC2 SA571N
1-1.28
2-1.80
3-1.80
4-0
5-1.80
6-1.79
7-7.43
8-1.80
9-1.80
10-8.05
11-6.37
12-1.81
13-8.98
14-1.80
15-1.80
16-0.27
IC HCF 4047BE (datasheet same as a CD4057...)
1-4.58
2-4.38
3-4.38
4-8.99
5-8.98
6-8.98
7-0
8-0
9-0
10-4.45
11-4.45
12-0
13-4.58
14-8.98
Test done with BAL at noon, Bias 1 and 2 at Noon, Gain 1 and 2 at Full Anticlockwise.
Thanks for all help and patience
FWIW I also did beans tests earlier
- Pin 7 of IC1 had clean signal, clear, non distorted
- Pin 7 of IC8 again had signal, bit louder than IC1
- Pin 7 of SA571n had a fuzzy sound
When messing around earlier I noticed also that I could only get echos with a lot of pick strength / attack.
Cheers
If your testing out of box it will "whine" a little.
Josh
fudge me
I dunno whats going on.
But it works now.
needs fine tuning repeats a bit fuzy
but shit
its works
holy damn
still be interested to hear what people think of the voltages?
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 07, 2011, 02:43:35 PM
fudge me
I dunno whats going on.
But it works now.
needs fine tuning repeats a bit fuzy
but shit
its works
holy damn
still be interested to hear what people think of the voltages?
I'd say there's a little bit of inconsistency, probably in line with the bad joint or IC not properly in socket that caused your issue in the first place, generally in the right ball park though.
Quote from: tenwatt on December 07, 2011, 02:35:56 PM
Okay, I'm getting excited now. After pushing the ICs down it's sounding GOOOOOOOD. The only dilemma is if I punch a power chord firmly it breaks up and sounds all fuzz like. I only rolled the "Gain" trimmers up enough to get the oscillation but should I back them off a bit to get rid of that?
The whining in the "Delay" pot is still there BUT it goes away when I touch the "Level" pot. I'm thinking that it's a grounding issue that will go away when I box it. Do you guys agree?
Using Humbuckers? Yeah a BBD will clip when smacked with a power chord, especially with high output pickups, that's the nature of them.
You might be able to dial it out though yeah, keep messing with the Bias & Gain trimmers untill you get a nice balance. As I said, Gain 1 & Bias 2 will interact so that's a spot to tweak back and forth untill you get the correct balance. Of course not neglecting the other bias trimmer, the post gain trimmer shouldn't be affecting clipping so much.
Then as Josh said about the whine.
Think it was just seating all the ic again. Didn't touch any solder.
On the look for a 240pf mica cap now,or a known good ceramic.
Speaking of whine my eh poly chorus does the same thing at high delay settings.
And I had clock noise tenable by delay pot setting on my aqua puss fixed that by shielded cable on the output in addition to the input.
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 07, 2011, 04:30:13 PM
Think it was just seating all the ic again. Didn't touch any solder.
On the look for a 240pf mica cap now,or a known good ceramic.
Speaking of whine my eh poly chorus does the same thing at high delay settings.
And I had clock noise tenable by delay pot setting on my aqua puss fixed that by shielded cable on the output in addition to the input.
Yeah it will and does happen at high delay times, the only way out of it is to buffer the clock lines (as the very first Deluxe Memory Mans had the 4049 before it was omitted as it's not entirely necessary) or use more BBDs so the clock doesn't have to work as hard.
I thought you had a socket for your 240pF cap from the picture I saw? Can't you just select a 220pF out of your ceramics?
Yeah I will tomorrow, in bed now.
Just be nice to have the mica, or a tested 240pf
Checking my pots to get accurate values was an eye opener.
100k some were low as 85k up to 110k
Got 99.8k and 100.3k though hehe
Is a silver mica recommended over a ceramic?
Quote from: tenwatt on December 07, 2011, 05:59:36 PM
Is a silver mica recommended over a ceramic?
Silver mica will just be closer in tollerance I imagine, if it's working fine with a ceramic, it's working fine.
That component has no bearing on the audio at all, it merely sets the maximum delay time.
If you get enough delay time then it's probably close enough in value, if you feel there should be more delay time, it may be too low, if you get whine at the max delay setting, it may be over the value... you can just not set the delay pot that high though.
A capacitor of 5% tollerance is reccomended on the schematic (although EHX ignored this and deluxe memory mans regularly had around 400ms Delay according to a test I read, which I can beleive) 10% is acceptable and will most likely be fine, ceramics tend to have 20% so it is a little risky unless you can measure it or you are not overly fussed about getting the max delay time or having to back off the delay pot a bit.
As i've said many times though, the Delay pot value, 5k6 resistor and that cap all have a bearing on the delay time, not just the cap.
No worries I'm just hoping to have the most accurate value.
I bothered to test pots and used 1% resistors where possible inc the 5.6k
Can't wait to gt this boxed up
Thanks for all he support
boxed this up now, having a mess with the trimmers again.
even with the cleanest trims on the Bias1 and 2, it still seems to get overdriven easily
the repeats are not clean even by analog delay standards, especially the very first repeat.
I have the Gain trimmers almost off to try and help with it.
otherwise its all functions and does sound lovely, just need to keep trimming I spose.
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 08, 2011, 02:43:30 AM
boxed this up now, having a mess with the trimmers again.
even with the cleanest trims on the Bias1 and 2, it still seems to get overdriven easily
the repeats are not clean even by analog delay standards, especially the very first repeat.
I have the Gain trimmers almost off to try and help with it.
otherwise its all functions and does sound lovely, just need to keep trimming I spose.
I'm having the same issue. It's a little more sensitive than I first thought. Adding OD is NOT an option. Higher notes are not as bad but lower notes are pushed easily into fuzzy repeats. I tried my single coil Tele and the problem is the same. Any suggestions?
Did the whine go away when you boxed it?
Hi
no the clock noise whine is still there past 2pm on the Delay knob.
not present in bypass though which is encouraging.
Maybe the mods bean suggested earlier would help, not sure.
Wanna wait for some feedback from him hopefully its forthcoming.
Cheers
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 08, 2011, 03:33:50 AM
Hi
no the clock noise whine is still there past 2pm on the Delay knob.
not present in bypass though which is encouraging.
Maybe the mods bean suggested earlier would help, not sure.
Wanna wait for some feedback from him hopefully its forthcoming.
Cheers
Does the whining stop for you when you touch the "Level" pot?
touch where exactly :o
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 08, 2011, 05:18:55 AM
touch where exactly :o
If I touch the bare "Level" pot shaft (no knob) with my bare finger (or bare toe so that I can test it with out whine) it stops the whining that occurs when I turn the "Delay" pot up.
nope still there either way on mine
Quote from: madbean on December 07, 2011, 04:57:56 AM
Signal seems a bit hot coming off pins 3&4 of each BBD. I'll need to get some voltages from mine for comparison.
One possible solution to reduce distortion is to reduce the signal input to the BBD's even further. This is untested but here are a couple of ideas:
Temporarily disconnect R18 to see if the overload LED is having an influence on noise.
Increase R21 to 100k and reduce C14 to 3n3.
Lower R11 and R12 down to 33k.
Also, do you have the two GAIN trimmers turned all the way down?
Hey Brian,
Have you read our recent problems? Do these ideas still apply? I just don't want to have to do anymore desoldering than I have to. ;)
Quote from: tenwatt on December 08, 2011, 07:47:39 AM
Quote from: madbean on December 07, 2011, 04:57:56 AM
Signal seems a bit hot coming off pins 3&4 of each BBD. I'll need to get some voltages from mine for comparison.
One possible solution to reduce distortion is to reduce the signal input to the BBD's even further. This is untested but here are a couple of ideas:
Temporarily disconnect R18 to see if the overload LED is having an influence on noise.
Increase R21 to 100k and reduce C14 to 3n3.
Lower R11 and R12 down to 33k.
Also, do you have the two GAIN trimmers turned all the way down?
Hey Brian,
Have you read our recent problems? Do these ideas still apply? I just don't want to have to do anymore desoldering than I have to. ;)
Yes they would still apply.
I can't find my copy of the Compander cookbook to get the correct equation to know where best to set R11 & 12 but somewhere between 33 & 47k may be a good choice.
But both methods just decrease how hard the BBDs are smacked in the first place so give them a whirl, you can make up gain later.
IF I were to do one thing at a time whats likely most beneficial ? the resistor pair on the compander?
Cheers
Let me get this straight, though. If I disconect R18 and the problem goes away are the other mods neccesary?
*EDIT* Sorry, Lace. I was typing as you posted.
I was just about to d/c R18 if you wanna wait for me to try it?
R18 doesnt make a difference on my build
Quote from: tenwatt on December 08, 2011, 08:11:06 AM
Let me get this straight, though. If I disconect R18 and the problem goes away are the other mods neccesary?
*EDIT* Sorry, Lace. I was typing as you posted.
If it goes away it goes away, but I don't think it'll help, could be wrong there though.
The other methods make more sense as they're reducing the gain that smacks the BBDs.
Sockets would be my suggestion for R11,12,21 & C14 untill a good balance is found.
I'd breadboard the circuit but I don't have all the parts yet.
socketed R11 and R12 with 33k in there its not really any better
100k in r21 makes things more extremely muffled and severely limits repeats but i can still hear distortion on the repeat
struggling to get c14 out already screwed one pad on r21 luckily it was salvagable
gotta go out.
If tenwatt tries c14 that'd be cool. if I ruined the pads, how easy would it be to jumper?
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 08, 2011, 10:08:19 AM
gotta go out.
If tenwatt tries c14 that'd be cool. if I ruined the pads, how easy would it be to jumper?
Since you've already done the others I'll start with C14 tonight. It will be another four hours or so before I get to mess with it but if you haven't done it before then I'll be all over it. That is IF I have a 3n3.
Quote from: tenwatt on December 08, 2011, 10:10:15 AM
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 08, 2011, 10:08:19 AM
gotta go out.
If tenwatt tries c14 that'd be cool. if I ruined the pads, how easy would it be to jumper?
Since you've already done the others I'll start with C14 tonight. It will be another four hours or so before I get to mess with it but if you haven't done it before then I'll be all over it. That is IF I have a 3n3.
Doing
Just C14 wont do anything, you have to do it in conjunction with R21 because together they form a... (this is the bit where you're meant to learn).
*Hint* Big Muff Tone Control Blends between them.
This is why your repeats became muffled when increasing R21 but not changing C14.
Quote from: Scruffie on December 08, 2011, 10:24:19 AMDoing Just C14 wont do anything, you have to do it in conjunction with R21 because together they form a... (this is the bit where you're meant to learn).
*Hint* Big Muff Tone Control Blends between them.
This is why your repeats became muffled when increasing R21 but not changing C14.
Ooh...
But what about the R11 & R12 mod. Since Lace has done that with no change can we rule that out or should we just bite the bullet and do both mods?
Quote from: tenwatt on December 08, 2011, 11:02:06 AM
Quote from: Scruffie on December 08, 2011, 10:24:19 AMDoing Just C14 wont do anything, you have to do it in conjunction with R21 because together they form a... (this is the bit where you're meant to learn).
*Hint* Big Muff Tone Control Blends between them.
This is why your repeats became muffled when increasing R21 but not changing C14.
Ooh...
But what about the R11 & R12 mod. Since Lace has done that with no change can we rule that out or should we just bite the bullet and do both mods?
Actually I need to correct that statement, changing C14 alone will do something, it'll change the filtering, but you change them both to keep the sound the same but introduce more resistance before the BBDs.
Well I suggested 47k originally... I think that's about right, i'd need to see the equation on the compander datasheet but I don't have it to hand at the moment.
Do the R21 & C14 mod first, if the R11&12 mod didn't work for Lace... if that works a bit but not fully, then ty the R11&12 one.
Don't forget to keep adjusting your gains and biases when doing this.
You guys do know that a BBD will clip with a hot signal though yeah? If you whack a power chord with humbuckers (especially active!) it is going to clip.
Quote from: ScruffieYou guys do know that a BBD will clip with a hot signal though yeah? If you whack a power chord with humbuckers (especially active!) it is going to clip.
I tested last night with a single coil Tele and random single notes would clip (and when I say clip I mean sound like the repeats were being ran through a Fuzz Face). I turned on an OD and played single notes and it sounded BAAAAAAD.
Quote from: tenwatt on December 08, 2011, 12:51:49 PM
Quote from: ScruffieYou guys do know that a BBD will clip with a hot signal though yeah? If you whack a power chord with humbuckers (especially active!) it is going to clip.
I tested last night with a single coil Tele and random single notes would clip (and when I say clip I mean sound like the repeats were being ran through a Fuzz Face). I turned on an OD and played single notes and it sounded BAAAAAAD.
Nowww we're getting somewhere!
Only the repeats distort? Not the initial note? Then something is happening in the feedback path by the sound of it not the BBDs being slammed too hard.
Can I see your working voltages? As the previous were taken with problems.
That random single notes is concerning...
yea its just the repeats, the clean sound is fine.
im gonna be gutted if
a it ant be fixed or
b it needs lots of stuf changing. i find it really hard to desolder and im risking ruining my build the more i have to correct :(
Quote from: Scruffie on December 08, 2011, 01:38:20 PM
Quote from: tenwatt on December 08, 2011, 12:51:49 PM
Quote from: ScruffieYou guys do know that a BBD will clip with a hot signal though yeah? If you whack a power chord with humbuckers (especially active!) it is going to clip.
I tested last night with a single coil Tele and random single notes would clip (and when I say clip I mean sound like the repeats were being ran through a Fuzz Face). I turned on an OD and played single notes and it sounded BAAAAAAD.
Nowww we're getting somewhere!
Only the repeats distort? Not the initial note? Then something is happening in the feedback path by the sound of it not the BBDs being slammed too hard.
Can I see your working voltages? As the previous were taken with problems.
That random single notes is concerning...
What voltages do you want? Do my trimmers need to be set a certain way before measuring?
Quote from: tenwatt on December 08, 2011, 04:10:56 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on December 08, 2011, 01:38:20 PM
Quote from: tenwatt on December 08, 2011, 12:51:49 PM
Quote from: ScruffieYou guys do know that a BBD will clip with a hot signal though yeah? If you whack a power chord with humbuckers (especially active!) it is going to clip.
I tested last night with a single coil Tele and random single notes would clip (and when I say clip I mean sound like the repeats were being ran through a Fuzz Face). I turned on an OD and played single notes and it sounded BAAAAAAD.
Nowww we're getting somewhere!
Only the repeats distort? Not the initial note? Then something is happening in the feedback path by the sound of it not the BBDs being slammed too hard.
Can I see your working voltages? As the previous were taken with problems.
That random single notes is concerning...
What voltages do you want? Do my trimmers need to be set a certain way before measuring?
Nah, voltages as the trimmers are set.
The voltage of every pin of your ICs is what I want.
mine above weretaken when working as it is now if that is any use.
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 08, 2011, 04:43:55 PM
mine above weretaken when working as it is now if that is any use.
Yes it does, there's something wrong with pins 10 & 11 of your Compander I think, the voltages seem far too high.
Can you try your Compander out your Aqua Puss (I assume that's working fine) and check again?
I got it! Pin 12 of the Compander, it's set to bias the output of the Compander and it's still set for 15V so the compander is putting too much signal back into the feedback path and clipping your delays!
Well at least I think that's what's going on and i'm not about to be an idiot when you both say that didn't help at all.
Right, try half the value of 11k (5k6, 4k7, something round there) and then try again.
Quote from: Scruffie on December 08, 2011, 05:58:22 PM
I got it! Pin 12 of the Compander, it's set to bias the output of the Compander and it's still set for 15V so the compander is putting too much signal back into the feedback path and clipping your delays!
Well at least I think that's what's going on and i'm not about to be an idiot when you both say that didn't help at all.
Right, try half the value of 11k (5k6, 4k7, something round there) and then try again.
I'm sorry. I'm confused. Where should we try this 5k6/4k7? I have all my voltages but I'll post them if this doesn't work.
Quote from: tenwatt on December 08, 2011, 06:21:15 PM
Quote from: Scruffie on December 08, 2011, 05:58:22 PM
I got it! Pin 12 of the Compander, it's set to bias the output of the Compander and it's still set for 15V so the compander is putting too much signal back into the feedback path and clipping your delays!
Well at least I think that's what's going on and i'm not about to be an idiot when you both say that didn't help at all.
Right, try half the value of 11k (5k6, 4k7, something round there) and then try again.
I'm sorry. I'm confused. Where should we try this 5k6/4k7? I have all my voltages but I'll post them if this doesn't work.
On Pin 12 of the Compander, R42, try either a 4k7 or 5k6.
Ten watt your up dude. I'm scared o just completely ruin mine now.
Quote from: Scruffie on December 08, 2011, 05:58:22 PM
I got it! Pin 12 of the Compander, it's set to bias the output of the Compander and it's still set for 15V so the compander is putting too much signal back into the feedback path and clipping your delays!
Well at least I think that's what's going on and i'm not about to be an idiot when you both say that didn't help at all.
Right, try half the value of 11k (5k6, 4k7, something round there) and then try again.
I'm about to start building this for v3205s and have been reading this thread with interest (and trepidation haha) - are you saying the 11k value of R42 is definitely wrong if building the V3205 for 9V operation?
Quote from: Scruffie on December 08, 2011, 05:12:34 PM
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 08, 2011, 04:43:55 PM
mine above weretaken when working as it is now if that is any use.
Yes it does, there's something wrong with pins 10 & 11 of your Compander I think, the voltages seem far too high.
Can you try your Compander out your Aqua Puss (I assume that's working fine) and check again?
Fwiw I put the DMV commander in my ap and it was perfect. Not done the reverse swap.
Quote from: MadeByMike on December 09, 2011, 12:35:29 AM
Quote from: Scruffie on December 08, 2011, 05:58:22 PM
I got it! Pin 12 of the Compander, it's set to bias the output of the Compander and it's still set for 15V so the compander is putting too much signal back into the feedback path and clipping your delays!
Well at least I think that's what's going on and i'm not about to be an idiot when you both say that didn't help at all.
Right, try half the value of 11k (5k6, 4k7, something round there) and then try again.
I'm about to start building this for v3205s and have been reading this thread with interest (and trepidation haha) - are you saying the 11k value of R42 is definitely wrong if building the V3205 for 9V operation?
Probably just wait or socket a load....
Ok so I tacked on an 11k in parallel with the existing
(11 x 11) / (11 + 11) = 5k
The sound on pins 3 of the BBD seem to be a bit cleaned up.
However, the pedal just passes straight signal, no echos.
All the other mods back to normal (r11 and r12 47k, tried with 33k same deal )
it was at least delaying when I left it last night.
voltages for the compander now.
Before after "changing" r42
IC2 SA571N
1-1.28 1.05
2-1.80 same
3-1.80 same
4-0 same
5-1.80 same
6-1.79 same
7-7.43 7.40
8-1.80 same
9-1.80 same
10-8.05 8.20
11-6.37 6.30
12-1.81 1.24
13-8.98 same
14-1.80 same
15-1.80 same
16-0.27 0.39
edit - if I untack that resistor bringing down to 5k, I get my repeats again....
ive got a feeling we might be some time here.
Im a bit sad we havent heard from Madbean again on this one. This is probably the most anticipated pedal of the DIY calendar year
You keep beating me to the punch, Lace. You must have a lot more free time than me. ;)
I just got up and gave it a whirl today
Its a quiet week (working from home).
If you wanna replicate it, thatd be nice to know we are both in the same boat.
For what its worth, no offence to people helping, but I think I wanna take a break now until we can (hopefully) get a final say on whats gone wrong here. Too coincidental for it to just be something we have done, and I can say (apart from the clock Cap, and the 1n2, which I made 1n) I have built this 100% to spec so its probably gonna be something needs fixing in the BOM and until we can get a final say on that, im scared if I keep butchering my board its gonna get damaged and Ive worked to hard on this to ruin it now and need to buy everything again.
Hopefully Bean is beavering away with his board and can chip in.
Hey Lace, the guys on this board usually try not to bombard us with info. My guess would be that Brian's advice would be the same that we are already receiving or he's just really busy right now. Plus, I'm not sure that the PCB and instructions are the problem. It could still very well be something we did in assembling the circuit.
With that being said...I have some crazy problems. Here are my voltages. Any advice would be GREAT!
VC: 9.4V
IC1
5.08
5.08
5.07
1.8mV
9.4
5.08
5.08
5.04
IC2
1.15
1.81
1.81
1.4mV
1.81
1.81
7.83
1.81
this pin goes crazy and the meter jumps all over the place
1.81
1.81
9.4
1.81
6.12
7.84
1.81
IC3
5.08
5.08
5.08
0
9.4
5.08
5.08
5.08
IC4
1.4mV
4.71
5.9
5.9
7.93
5.55
4.71
8.2
IC5
1.4mV
4.71
5.58
5.58
7.92
5.33
4.71
8.2
IC6
5.33
5.33
5.32
1.4mV
9.40
5.58
5.35
5.31
IC7
this pin goes crazy and the meter jumps all over the place
4.78
4.46-5.2 (this pin also jumps around)
.5mV
9.4
4.46-5.2 (this pin also jumps around)
4.78
4.78
IC8
5.09
5.09
5.07
0
9.4
7.84
7.84
7.76
IC9
4.34
5.02
5.08
9.4
9.4
9.4
.9mV
9.4
4.38
1.3mV
4.71
4.71
1.3mV
1.3mV
Quote from: tenwatt on December 09, 2011, 05:25:50 AM
Hey Lace, the guys on this board usually try not to bombard us with info. My guess would be that Brian's advice would be the same that we are already receiving or he's just really busy right now. Plus, I'm not sure that the PCB and instructions are the problem. It could still very well be something we did in assembling the circuit.
With that being said...I have some crazy problems. Here are my voltages. Any advice would be GREAT!
IC7s Pins should be moving, it's the LFO, that's normal.
But it seems your other problem is with the Compander (IC2) I stand by that area being a issue but untill my full nets back on the 15th, I can't get a copy of the compander datasheets or cookbook.
Your 4047 (IC9) voltages are wayy off though, are you sure you haven't written them down wrong? 4 of the pins should be ground, 10&11 should be roughly half supply and why are most of your grounds at 1.4mV?
Everything following the first stage of the compander has 1.4mV of ground untill the path comes back to the compander and it's okay gain from IC8.
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 09, 2011, 03:46:56 AM
I just got up and gave it a whirl today
Its a quiet week (working from home).
If you wanna replicate it, thatd be nice to know we are both in the same boat.
For what its worth, no offence to people helping, but I think I wanna take a break now until we can (hopefully) get a final say on whats gone wrong here. Too coincidental for it to just be something we have done, and I can say (apart from the clock Cap, and the 1n2, which I made 1n) I have built this 100% to spec so its probably gonna be something needs fixing in the BOM and until we can get a final say on that, im scared if I keep butchering my board its gonna get damaged and Ive worked to hard on this to ruin it now and need to buy everything again.
Hopefully Bean is beavering away with his board and can chip in.
I don't blame you, no point ruining the board.
This is something that should be done on a breadboard and by someone with the datasheet in front of them, not someone trying to go from memory, shame though, thought i'd had a bit of a moment but I
THINK that's the area to keep digging in, it makes sense.
My next suggestion woulda been to remove R42,43 & 27 from that area... if you wanna risk it, that's my final suggestion.
any thoughts on why dropping that R42 to to 5k would stop all the echoes being heard?
Like i said it seemed to be having a positive effect when audio probing the BBDs.
my problem now is
1- dont wanna ruin the board. Whats the most efficient and risk free way to desolder these double side boards?
2- replacing sockets where there were resistors in tight packed areas is not always easy due to space.
Id have to start from scratch and socket those to do a clean job. I know it doesnt matter in the long run, but a board I was really pleased/proud of is now getting chopped up and replaced with loads of sockets... :-\ :-[
I'm not as far in the debug process as you guys, but I'm also having the same problem.
Echos are nasty distorted and no amount of biasing can clean them up.
No advice to give. I set it aside yesterday so I wouldn't get frustrated with it.
sorry to hear that genuinely
however in a selfish way its almost heartening to not be on your own
Quote from: Scruffie on December 09, 2011, 06:36:00 AMYour 4047 (IC9) voltages are wayy off though, are you sure you haven't written them down wrong? 4 of the pins should be ground, 10&11 should be roughly half supply and why are most of your grounds at 1.4mV?
Everything following the first stage of the compander has 1.4mV of ground untill the path comes back to the compander and it's okay gain from IC8.
Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. I don't think I wrote them down wrong. I'll recheck tonight. About the grounds...I really don't know what's up. Any ideas on what I should check? I wonder if it has anything to do with the whining "Delay" pot (It only whines when turned past the halfway point and stops when I touch the "Level" pot).
Quote from: ScruffieMy next suggestion woulda been to remove R42,43 & 27 from that area... if you wanna risk it, that's my final suggestion.
Lace, I won't be able to get to this until late tonight or tomorrow. If you need a break and want to wait for me to try it...by all means...take a break.
Scruffie, would we simply remove them? Do we need to add any jumpers?
Cheers dude
Yeah I am pretty burnt out now.
Like I said earlier, until its resolved one way or another, its in a cupboard.
Wonder if anyone have build the current lover yet. not sure I wanna be an "early adopter" again...
. In any case I think I am gonna give building a rest for a while :(
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 09, 2011, 07:22:47 AM
Cheers dude
Yeah I am pretty burnt out now.
Like I said earlier, until its resolved one way or another, its in a cupboard.
Wonder if anyone have build the current lover yet. not sure I wanna be an "early adopter" again...
. In any case I think I am gonna give building a rest for a while :(
I bet you are, cheers for trying everything! Very good of you to help and try and get this one going smoothly.
I'm pretty sure the Current lover is fine, I saw a build report and it's wayyy less complex than this.
Quote from: jubal81 on December 09, 2011, 06:56:46 AM
I'm not as far in the debug process as you guys, but I'm also having the same problem.
Echos are nasty distorted and no amount of biasing can clean them up.
No advice to give. I set it aside yesterday so I wouldn't get frustrated with it.
Right, three cases, there's definitley something going on.
Lace, do you have sockets for R11 & 12? I know you're out the game but if there's sockets it'd save someone else desoldering, if so, one last try, put 24ks in both. Really the output of the Compander should be biased to 1/2 supply so 7vish is rather high.
If someone looks at the datasheet, you can find out what to do about Pin 12 (R42) I think I got it wrong from memory as the output voltage climbed to 8.2V so in fact you should increase it... if you try 24k in there.
We want both outputs around half supply.
Ignore what I said about removing R42,43 & C27.
I'm now positive the Compander is the issue, it's just feeding too much signal back in to the BBD.
Tenwatt... i'm afraid your voltages are a little more concerning.
Quote from: Scruffie on December 09, 2011, 07:41:48 AMTenwatt... i'm afraid your voltages are a little more concerning.
Any ideas? I'll remeasure it tonight.
Quote from: Scruffie on December 09, 2011, 07:41:48 AM
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 09, 2011, 07:22:47 AM
Cheers dude
Yeah I am pretty burnt out now.
Like I said earlier, until its resolved one way or another, its in a cupboard.
Wonder if anyone have build the current lover yet. not sure I wanna be an "early adopter" again...
. In any case I think I am gonna give building a rest for a while :(
I bet you are, cheers for trying everything! Very good of you to help and try and get this one going smoothly.
I'm pretty sure the Current lover is fine, I saw a build report and it's wayyy less complex than this.
Quote from: jubal81 on December 09, 2011, 06:56:46 AM
I'm not as far in the debug process as you guys, but I'm also having the same problem.
Echos are nasty distorted and no amount of biasing can clean them up.
No advice to give. I set it aside yesterday so I wouldn't get frustrated with it.
Right, three cases, there's definitley something going on.
Lace, do you have sockets for R11 & 12? I know you're out the game but if there's sockets it'd save someone else desoldering, if so, one last try, put 24ks in both. Really the output of the Compander should be biased to 1/2 supply so 7vish is rather high.
If someone looks at the datasheet, you can find out what to do about Pin 12 (R42) I think I got it wrong from memory as the output voltage climbed to 8.2V so in fact you should increase it... if you try 24k in there.
We want both outputs around half supply.
Ignore what I said about removing R42,43 & C27.
I'm now positive the Compander is the issue, it's just feeding too much signal back in to the BBD.
Tenwatt... i'm afraid your voltages are a little more concerning.
Hi
I did socket R11, R12 and R21
I can try 24k gimme a moment.
With regards upping the resistor at R42, ill tack something to approximate 24k there as well.
Cheers.
actually unless my maths is shit its going to be hard pushed to make a parrallel resistor work with the 11k already in place..
right?
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 09, 2011, 07:52:12 AM
actually unless my maths is shit its going to be hard pushed to make a parrallel resistor work with the 11k already in place..
right?
'Fraid so... you could cut one leg on the top and run a 11k in series with it and solder it to the remainder of the other leg... bit messy but it wont risk the pad.
Hey guys, just checking in on this thread. Let me have a look today at my prototype and see if I somehow omitted the compander values I used. I took pretty good notes during the process, but there is always the possibility of error. I'll get the shop warmed up (I think it's about 40 degrees in there!) and get this solved.
fuck it.
socketed it, and said goodbye to another pad
edit - actually swapping back and forth im not sure
more testing, will report back shortly
pin 11 is down to 4.57v now (compander that is)
going to rebias the bbd and see what I hear.
I think its better but im getting ear fatigue from doing this ;)
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 09, 2011, 08:12:04 AM
fuck it.
socketed it, and said goodbye to another pad
edit - actually swapping back and forth im not sure
more testing, will report back shortly
Woo! We're getting there.
Right, Now check all your IC2 voltages again, the closer we get pins 7, 10 & 11 to half supply the better.
Quote from: madbean on December 09, 2011, 08:08:50 AM
Hey guys, just checking in on this thread. Let me have a look today at my prototype and see if I somehow omitted the compander values I used. I took pretty good notes during the process, but there is always the possibility of error. I'll get the shop warmed up (I think it's about 40 degrees in there!) and get this solved.
If you can get the Datasheet up bean, you can just use the sums to get a resistor value for these values in the right area and save your self the cold! (Well unless you meant degrees c... or else your shop is hot in winter!)
Seem to have gotten to the bottom of what's gone wrong through trial and error, that would give a more definitive answer.
EDIT: You typed this as I posted:-
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 09, 2011, 08:19:34 AM
pin 11 is down to 4.57v now (compander that is)
going to rebias the bbd and see what I hear.
I think its better but im getting ear fatigue from doing this ;)
Sweet! What's Pin 7 at? 4.5Vish too? If so i'll say 24k seems like the (closest) Magic value.
Thanks for all the hard work guys! I've had the same distorted delay troubles with a double v3205 aquaboy. I cut the signal going to the bbds but my delay volume amount suffered. I'm now thinking that the area of the compander (thanks to Scruffie) could be improved on my aquaboy and that would solve the problem and have a delay level equal to my input level.
Keep on going guys. I've been there and it's frustrating but you work on this will be rewarded with great satisfaction in the end :)
Josh
pin 7 4.67v
10 = 5.56v
11 = 4.58v
the echoes are still a bit fuzzy.
im trying my best.
just for avoidance of doubt, r42, 11 and 12 are now at 24k
man, even though im suffering, through a 10w practice amp on my desk and obviously not 100% tuned, this sounds so cool .cant wait til its fully healthy
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 09, 2011, 08:33:19 AM
man, even though im suffering, through a 10w practice amp on my desk and obviously not 100% tuned, this sounds so cool .cant wait til its fully healthy
We'll get it as close as we can to sounding great!
Another step that can be taken to reduce distortion is to change R13 & 14 to 33k (can't remember where I picked that up from, not my idea, but it should help) it may slightly change the tone but not drastically.
I also wonder if altering R62 might be an idea... perhaps just 10k would cut it.
That and a bit of rebiasing.
Quote from: gtr2 on December 09, 2011, 08:29:40 AM
Thanks for all the hard work guys! I've had the same distorted delay troubles with a double v3205 aquaboy. I cut the signal going to the bbds but my delay volume amount suffered. I'm now thinking that the area of the compander (thanks to Scruffie) could be improved on my aquaboy and that would solve the problem and have a delay level equal to my input level.
Keep on going guys. I've been there and it's frustrating but you work on this will be rewarded with great satisfaction in the end :)
Josh
Cheers :)
Well post your Compander voltages as well and lets see if we can't change things a bit.
Now Bean is onboard Im going to wait and see what else pops up via the weekend.
Be interested to see what other peoples experiences are
I appreciate the hard work you guys are doing on this. I got my DBD board and am about to order parts, but will hold off until some consensus is reached about the issues with the BOM and construction of the delay. Again, thanks for all the work you guys are doing!
I've got my desoldering iron warmed up and I'm chomping at the bit. Do you have any new word for us, Brian?
Plus one
Another negative report of same issue at FSB.
I have posted this thread there, it's nt fair letting ppl build this when there is clearly bugs somewhere.
I'm hoping this is addressed soon.
This will not be a problem if I use MN3005's right?
Not sure.
I don't mind being the guinea pig. Makes me feel like I'm a part of the solution. Let's keep it positive and get it wrapped up. Negative vibes aren't going to help at all.
Thanks for all the hard work you guys are doing
I didn't get the time I needed yesterday to work on this, but I'm on it now. Anyone who is experiencing problems just hold on, take a deep breath and wait another day. I'll have some comments by tomorrow. Distorted delay actually only has a couple of culprits, so I think this is actually something very minor. I'm also really puzzled over why my prototype build did not have this problem. Anyway, more as soon as I have it!
Quote from: madbean on December 10, 2011, 03:05:05 PM
I didn't get the time I needed yesterday to work on this, but I'm on it now. Anyone who is experiencing problems just hold on, take a deep breath and wait another day. I'll have some comments by tomorrow. Distorted delay actually only has a couple of culprits, so I think this is actually something very minor. I'm also really puzzled over why my prototype build did not have this problem. Anyway, more as soon as I have it!
really appreciate you popping by to update.
my anguish is only cos I know how lovely thisll end up
Looking forward to hearing your analysis
One thing I'll be looking at is how BIAS2 and GAIN2 might be over-amplifying the delay line signal into the second BBD. It's possible that tying R23 to VB instead of ground or adding a cap in series to ground might solve the problem. I actually did the same thing with R17 (which goes to ground in the stock DMM).
REF:http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?p=166963#p166963
As Scruffie mentioned in another post, these two trimmers are somewhat interactive.
I'm going to experiment with the compander section a little more, too. Basically, I'm populating one of the production boards to compare to my prototype, with several key components socketed. The prototype is about 99% the same layout, but there were a few "bottom side" fixes for small errors on that layout, which makes it a lot harder to swap out resistors, etc.
I expect everyone to have some beautiful delays happening before you know it!
After posting at FSB.org i was pointed in this direction ;)
I will measure my Dirtbag board an post voltages.
Is there anything that can be done right now?
RonaldB
I was just looking at the schematic for the AD3208 over at GGG.com
And in the compander section they used 2x 22K instead of 2x 47K.
And i noticed that they had 100pf on pin 9 and 8.
I have no experiance on these compander circuit's but maybe it's usefull.
RonaldB
Quote from: Loztboy on December 10, 2011, 10:04:46 AM
This will not be a problem if I use MN3005's right?
Not certain, but i built the 3005 version and didn't have this problem. I was very strict to the BOM (no part subs) and it fired right up. You may want to socket any subs or parts you may suspect need tweeking. But it is most likely a difference betweem the two versions from what I can tell.
Should not be an issue with MN3005. I expect that the higher supply voltage plays a part in that
I tried tying R23 to VB last night and it cleaned the delay line up.
Not all the fuzz is gone but you could here it getting better.
Off course i had to rebias the thing.
RonaldB
Confirmed w/ 3005's - finished mine tonight. It fired up first time, and sounds great. and I haven't even touched the trimmers yet!
Quote from: madbean on December 11, 2011, 08:00:58 AM
Should not be an issue with MN3005. I expect that the higher supply voltage plays a part in that
So I worked all yesterday afternoon, got my new build together. Fired it up and damn if it did not have the worst whining I ever heard. I was really stumped since I was very careful in populating and soldering. After 10 minutes I realized I had swapped the pots for delay and level. Ack!
Anyway, I will definitely wrap up this afternoon and have the solution for our extra dirty repeats.
I can barely wait. It's good to hear that even the Mighty Bean makes rookie mistakes sometimes too. ;D
The real question is...were you getting fizzy, fuzzy, delays?
Quote from: madbean on December 12, 2011, 07:08:37 AM
So I worked all yesterday afternoon, got my new build together. Fired it up and damn if it did not have the worst whining I ever heard. I was really stumped since I was very careful in populating and soldering. After 10 minutes I realized I had swapped the pots for delay and level. Ack!
Anyway, I will definitely wrap up this afternoon and have the solution for our extra dirty repeats.
Thanks for the update. I look forward to the conclusion of your findings.
LS
Thank Madbean,
I look forward to your findings to.
RonaldB
excited for this as I got my board and parts on the way! Hope it's an easy fix.
Solved. I'm putting the fix in the Errata section in just a sec.
Great! I can't wait to try it. Go figure...I don't have two 100k's. Rrrrr!
Thanx for all the hard work!
Im away for a few days. Will let you know how I get on
If someone does these mods I will look forward to hear from them
Im a bit concerned cos I already tried to remove the capacitor and couldnt get it out
whats the right way to unsolder these boards?
Ive used a solder sucker (thats what I have to hand) and stilll lost pads in the process.
Solder sucker is not going to be enough. You need a desoldering pump--you can get them for just a few bucks.
sounds like an easy fix if you haven't populated, yay! :-*
Quote from: madbean on December 12, 2011, 06:34:33 PM
Solder sucker is not going to be enough. You need a desoldering pump--you can get them for just a few bucks.
If i google that "desoldering pump" they both show the same device
a spring loaded tool like a tube that you place to the melted solder a click the button to vacuum up the molten solder.
thats what I already have.
Is this sufficient, or something else?
Thanks for the build reports and the updates guys - much appreciated - I'm about to start cracking shortly.
Hopefully you guys with the issues will be all good in no time?
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 12, 2011, 11:42:56 PM
If i google that "desoldering pump" they both show the same device
a spring loaded tool like a tube that you place to the melted solder a click the button to vacuum up the molten solder.
thats what I already have.
Is this sufficient, or something else?
I would normally give it one blast with the desoldering pump like the one you have and then get hold of the cap and heat both pads alternativley and give the cap a little wiggle to get it out. If solder is left in the holes then heat a little and push a cocktail stick in.
Quote from: marmaliser on December 13, 2011, 01:33:20 AM
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 12, 2011, 11:42:56 PM
If i google that "desoldering pump" they both show the same device
a spring loaded tool like a tube that you place to the melted solder a click the button to vacuum up the molten solder.
thats what I already have.
Is this sufficient, or something else?
I would normally give it one blast with the desoldering pump like the one you have and then get hold of the cap and heat both pads alternativley and give the cap a little wiggle to get it out. If solder is left in the holes then heat a little and push a cocktail stick in.
Cool thanks for the tips.
I use one of these:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062731
As do I along with de-soldering braid. Still can be a chore at times.
Just made the mods surgested by MadBean and run it through the scope.
The results where great so now to try it with guitar tonight.
RonaldB
Okay...I've done the mods and it seems MUCH better. When I'm biasing it I can't get it to self oscillate without a lot of distortion but I hope once I miss with the biasing some more it will be better. I'll keep you updated.
You can turn up GAIN1 and GAIN2 to counter-balance the effects of the mod for more oscillation.
Quote from: madbean on December 13, 2011, 08:02:46 PM
You can turn up GAIN1 and GAIN2 to counter-balance the effects of the mod for more oscillation.
Does it have to oscillate during the biasing process? That's where I'm getting the distortion. It sounds good and clean but then I turn up the GAIN pots and I get some distortion.
Maybe a silly question but do you mean by omitting R10, leaving it out and don't place anyting back?
iIve compromised and made R11 12 and 42 as 22k
Now its kinda there.
Dont think this fix is the be all end all personally however.
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 14, 2011, 11:46:25 AM
iIve compromised and made R11 12 and 42 as 22k
Now its kinda there.
Dont think this fix is the be all end all personally however.
I'm confused, as far as the up to date document is concerned I thought we were supposed to still use R11,R12 as the 47K specified for the 3205s?
There is also no mention in the document of changing R42 from 11K to 22K, I thought this was just something Scruffie suggested during this debug?
Did you still have dirty repeats with the pedal stock except for changing R21 and C14 to 100K?
Brian - when you made the above two circuit subs did you get your v3205 build all biased up and sounding good?
I've just started populating my board and unfortunately have already soldered in R11,R12,R21,R42 after hearing that the fixes were just those 100K subs. Am I going to end up experiencing the same issues?
Has anyone had success with their build as stock with only those 100K subs on top of the 47Ks in R11/R12 as documented?
Quote from: MadeByMike on December 15, 2011, 12:21:20 AM
Brian - when you made the above two circuit subs did you get your v3205 build all biased up and sounding good?
I've just started populating my board and unfortunately have already soldered in R11,R12,R21,R42 after hearing that the fixes were just those 100K subs. Am I going to end up experiencing the same issues?
Making the 100k resistor subs completely solved the distortion issue for me and I was able to bias the two BBDs easily. I have not tried tweaking R42, though.
Quote from: madbean on December 15, 2011, 12:34:22 AM
Quote from: MadeByMike on December 15, 2011, 12:21:20 AM
Brian - when you made the above two circuit subs did you get your v3205 build all biased up and sounding good?
I've just started populating my board and unfortunately have already soldered in R11,R12,R21,R42 after hearing that the fixes were just those 100K subs. Am I going to end up experiencing the same issues?
Making the 100k resistor subs completely solved the distortion issue for me and I was able to bias the two BBDs easily. I have not tried tweaking R42, though.
Thanks for the reply - That all sounds good to me then, sounds like I can continue with my build in hope!
Mike. Check your email.
Probably too late now.
The fixes of 100k for R21 and C14 do have an effect, but as another user pointed out, soon as you crank the gains to get any semblence of more than 2 repeats (clean) the thing starts distorting again.
Sorry but I have to voice these concerns otherwise more people might be in the same situation and all this troubleshooting would be for nothing.
All I can say is the combination of the madbean fix, and scruffies suggestions, has got me to a point where I can put a full stop on this. However, I am still not 100% happy with it.
Quote from: madbean on December 15, 2011, 12:34:22 AM
Making the 100k resistor subs completely solved the distortion issue for me and I was able to bias the two BBDs easily. I have not tried tweaking R42, though.
was this on a production board or a prototype?
were you able to tune gain 1 and 2 after biasing bbd 1 and 2, to get runaway feedback, without distortion (other than the obvious) and by this i mean tweaking to get to that point, then backing off the Feedback control.
When I do this, and back of the feeback control, because of the extra pre and post gain required for self oscillation, the isolated repeats at lowered feedback amounts are suffering distortion.
Hence leading me again to start messing with Scruffies suggestions.
Anyway, after much desoldering and dismantling I am chalking this up to experience and hopefully this discussion will help others. If the stock values work for them then great, but it seems mine and Tenwatt's experiences beg to differ, unless you are happy with 1 or 2 repeats only.
Footnote - I am sorry if my words appear negative but I feel I must voice them. No offense intended. With respect, LS.
If you are having to turn the gain pots up so much to counteract the input signal and this is causing distortion, then the best way to proceed is to modify the voltage divider created with the two 100k resistors. Hopefully you have those socketed. Try 47k for R21 to start and leave C14 at 100k. Or, you could temporarily hook up a 100k pot as a voltage divider and then tweak it to the optimal setting, Then it's just a matter of recording the resistance between the outer lugs and the wiper to get the correct resistor values. But, I don't think you will have to go to that far. Simply experimenting with lower values on R21 should be enough to balance the input signal with GAIN1.
Another approach would be to leave R21 and C14 as they were before (1k/33n) and instead tweak the value of R13 from 24k up to 51k - 100k. I'll give this a try today and see if it is any different from the posted fix from earlier.
Quote from: madbean on December 15, 2011, 02:27:07 AM
If you are having to turn the gain pots up so much to counteract the input signal and this is causing distortion, then the best way to proceed is to modify the voltage divider created with the two 100k resistors. Hopefully you have those socketed. Try 47k for R21 to start and leave C14 at 100k. Or, you could temporarily hook up a 100k pot as a voltage divider and then tweak it to the optimal setting, Then it's just a matter of recording the resistance between the outer lugs and the wiper to get the correct resistor values. But, I don't think you will have to go to that far. Simply experimenting with lower values on R21 should be enough to balance the input signal with GAIN1.
Seeing as how confident the fix appeared to be I didnt socket C14, I just put the 100k resistor in. I do have r21 socketed however.
Yikes. I've already soldered a 100K into R21 since it seemed this was confirmed as the fix. C14 is empty so I'll socket that for sure in case.
I guess I'll hold off doing anything else at all until this is all sorted out. I'll wait for more feedback from Brian about the state of his production board with the current R21/C14 100Ks and whether this needs to be reverted and other values installed elsewhere.
Upsettingly R13 is already soldered on my board too. I was really hoping not to have to start pulling out components already.
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 15, 2011, 02:49:50 AM
Seeing as how confident the fix appeared to be I didnt socket C14, I just put the 100k resistor in. I do have r21 socketed however.
Well, if it appeared confident it's because it worked for me. I'm doing my best to help you :(
Can you post your IC voltages with your trims adjusted? Maybe this will help LaceSensor to see where he's differing to you?
You're not getting the problems he is with not getting oscillation unless the trims are so high the delays are gritty?
Quote from: MadeByMike on December 15, 2011, 03:21:26 AMYou're not getting the problems he is with not getting oscillation unless the trims are so high the delays are gritty?
That's exactly my problem.
Quote from: tenwatt on December 15, 2011, 05:28:21 AM
Quote from: MadeByMike on December 15, 2011, 03:21:26 AMYou're not getting the problems he is with not getting oscillation unless the trims are so high the delays are gritty?
That's exactly my problem.
I guess we need to hear more from Brian, but it sounds like we're not out of the woods as regards the v3205 version yet.
who needs oscillation anyway? :D
Quote from: madbean on December 15, 2011, 03:16:08 AM
Quote from: LaceSensor on December 15, 2011, 02:49:50 AM
Seeing as how confident the fix appeared to be I didnt socket C14, I just put the 100k resistor in. I do have r21 socketed however.
Well, if it appeared confident it's because it worked for me. I'm doing my best to help you :(
Can you address my point above to confirm how completely it worked for you?
I dont wanna sound ungrateful I do appreciate the help, but big statements were made with regards this fixing it, and Im saying yeah it does for 1 or 2 repeats but not with gain trims set to allow the effect to work correctly.
Quote from: Scruffie on December 08, 2011, 05:58:22 PM
I got it! Pin 12 of the Compander, it's set to bias the output of the Compander and it's still set for 15V so the compander is putting too much signal back into the feedback path and clipping your delays!
Well at least I think that's what's going on and i'm not about to be an idiot when you both say that didn't help at all.
Right, try half the value of 11k (5k6, 4k7, something round there) and then try again.
I'm wondering about this, is this still the case that R42 is incorrect for 9V operation or was this a red herring?
Quote from: MadeByMike on December 15, 2011, 08:00:47 AM
Quote from: Scruffie on December 08, 2011, 05:58:22 PM
I got it! Pin 12 of the Compander, it's set to bias the output of the Compander and it's still set for 15V so the compander is putting too much signal back into the feedback path and clipping your delays!
Well at least I think that's what's going on and i'm not about to be an idiot when you both say that didn't help at all.
Right, try half the value of 11k (5k6, 4k7, something round there) and then try again.
I'm wondering about this, is this still the case that R42 is incorrect for 9V operation or was this a red herring?
For what its worth to reiterate I have a different value here, and it definitely helps*, with and without the c14/r21 @ 100k fix.
I will try to find time to experiment with r21 tonight.
*on my build, and to my ears, with a strat through an amp, not an oscilloscope.
I wanna take a minute to state
1 - I am genuinely sorry if any comments have been construed as overtly negative. I am passionate and perhaps that is coming across as me being ungrateful or angry. All my input has ultimately been with the goal of driving towards a fix for everyone, not just me.
2 - I am trying to help. Based on what I have experienced in this process, I think there is a combination of fixes here which can help get everyone where they wanna be with the performance of this effect. I am no expert however and hold my hands up. However, from the evidence it seems that there isnt (yet) a one stop "simple fix" - see * above..
3 - it would be most useful if we could have some transparency with regards the boards from development / testing / debugging. What are the voltages of the ICs? If the test boards work fine, why was it necessary to do the "100K Mod" on those boards? Or do I have the wrong end of the stick somewhere.
With respect
LS
I just got mine mostly working after making the fixes Brian suggested. However no matter how much I adjust the delay bias I can't get all the buzz out.
Quote from: jubal81 on December 15, 2011, 09:23:53 AM
I just got mine mostly working after making the fixes Brian suggested. However no matter how much I adjust the delay bias I can't get all the buzz out.
Can you elaborate on "buzz"? I would categorize buzzing and distortion as two different issues, the first being usually more of a grounding or noise issue and the second being more about excessive voltage or gain. Would you say it is more like the first or second category?
Quote from: madbean on December 15, 2011, 09:26:52 AM
Quote from: jubal81 on December 15, 2011, 09:23:53 AM
I just got mine mostly working after making the fixes Brian suggested. However no matter how much I adjust the delay bias I can't get all the buzz out.
Can you elaborate on "buzz"? I would categorize buzzing and distortion as two different issues, the first being usually more of a grounding or noise issue and the second being more about excessive voltage or gain. Would you say it is more like the first or second category?
Sorry, it's distortion. I've screwed up enough to know grounding hum when I hear it ;)
Also, I didn't see today's posts. The fix I did was the original 100K/100K.
Got it, thanks. I've been tweaking some more this morning so I'll hopefully have some more ideas later on today....mostly just dealing with the compander right now.
Awesome.
I also have to add that this thing sounds amazing. The warmth is incredible. To my ears it sounds like what I would imagine playing through a hi-fi reel-to-reel would sound like.
Quote from: madbean on December 15, 2011, 09:32:03 AM
Got it, thanks. I've been tweaking some more this morning so I'll hopefully have some more ideas later on today....mostly just dealing with the compander right now.
Any news on this? I'm still waiting for the result of your investigations before I continue populating my board
bump.