But, I do have to draw the line somewhere, and the line is no commercial production. That's pretty easily defined by 1) being a commercial pedal maker, i.e. you advertise, have an online presence through a website or through eBay or 2) offering yourself as "work for hire" on a regular basis. If you fall into either one of these categories, you need to bone up and do the work yourself, i.e. create your own layouts or hire someone to do them for you. And, you should want to do this anyway if you are going to be a legitimate presence in the pedal business.
Then there's also the issue of what to do with a pedal you built that you've used, but don't have a use for anymore. Lots of people here have built several, evens dozens of pedals and you can't possibly keep them all. Is it okay to sell them on eBay or Craigslist or whatever? Where exactly is the line in this area? I don't know. I usually re-use boxes, switches, pots, jacks, etc for other new projects and take the guts out. But I'm wondering how others forum members look at selling built clones on Madbean PCB's that you don't use anymore.
Then there's also the issue of what to do with a pedal you built that you've used, but don't have a use for anymore. Lots of people here have built several, evens dozens of pedals and you can't possibly keep them all. Is it okay to sell them on eBay or Craigslist or whatever? Where exactly is the line in this area? I don't know. I usually re-use boxes, switches, pots, jacks, etc for other new projects and take the guts out. But I'm wondering how others forum members look at selling built clones on Madbean PCB's that you don't use anymore.
The disclaimer on my site pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter:A note on clones & DIY stompage
First things first. No I will not make you a clone of a pedal if it's currently in production and not a glaring rip off of something else. This is a hobby for myself and Mr Clegg. Yes we do make quite a few pedals for friends, so in that respect it's a self funding hobby (to a degree... at the time of writing it's very much in the red by some hundreds of pounds). But it's in no way a commercial venture.
I see it playing out like this:
Don't clone the Klon! You're stealing food from the mouth's of Bill's kids!!!!!
Fuck ProCo! They're rich greedy corporate bastards. They deserve to be cloned!!!!
;D
That said, I definitely reserve the right to express some disgust with well known boutique companies who mercilessly clone their peers (you know who I am talking about)...
Call me a heretic, but I really don't see any ethical issues with selling a clone of a current-production pedal. I've always thought that "being in production" is an odd benchmark for ethics. I suppose mainly because it is so inconsistently applied. For example, the Rat has been in production continuously from its introduction, and yet nobody gives a shit if every boutique brand offers their own clone of it. Same for the Tubescreamer. The Muff did cease production for a bit, but it's been back for ages, and it's one of the most cloned circuits in the boutique world. The Fuzz Face, I believe, briefly ceased production, but obviously it is now owned and produced by Dunlop.
I think people *really* view it as big company vs small guy builder, even if they won't admit it. It's okay to clone some big company, but small guys are off limits.
I have a question i should probably know the answer for:
Is there some time before a particular design/circuit falls within the public domain?
And then, where is the IP stuff? Within the circuit and/or in the PCB? How are these two different objects relates?
For instance, if i want to build & sell massively a basic fuzz face pedal using the publicly available circuits, am i allowed to do so? Should i negotiate royalties with Dunlop even if i use my own layout & materials?
You could only steal from Bill if he actually sold the damn things. ;-)
Muffs are so insanely inconsistent that god knows what it's going to sound like.
I guess I can sum it up as "if you are gonna steal, do it from the best, but put something of yourself into it and make it your own". :D
That said, I definitely reserve the right to express some disgust with well known boutique companies who mercilessly clone their peers
I don't see it as a big guy vs. little guy debate, I see it as an undercutting issue and that's where I draw my moral line.
Part for part clones aren't exactly ok with me from big companies, but if you can take a rat and improve it, or remove/improve the buffer in a TS and offer that with some different clipping configs, that's enough to set your product apart.
I think the pedal ethics debate has reached the same level as religion and politics. Things that are best stayed well away from on internet forums. Life's too short to get pulled into the debate that cannot ever be concluded.
I'm not sure what you mean by publicly available. Most of the time, manufacturers do not make their circuits public. If they are in the public, those schematics have been provided by reverse engineering, or by the manufacturer's service package being released.
What do you mean by IP?
As for building and selling, yes. There is nothing to keep you from making your own schematic artwork, making your own PCB, and then manufacturing and selling a direct clone of almost any pedal. There are a select few circuits that have been patented. In those cases, if you change ONE part value incrementally, you can still make that pedal.
I think the pedal ethics debate has reached the same level as religion and politics. Things that are best stayed well away from on internet forums. Life's too short to get pulled into the debate that cannot ever be concluded.
+1
/thread
Not really when you consider it in in terms of polarity... opinions in this area are irreconcilable, which was my point ;) (See I made a pun)
There's some distance from religion, politics and pedal building. Actually, there's a link between them.
But guys, good or bad idea, religions are still discussed and so should the pedal building stuff when it comes to these kind of questions.
No need to be afraid as long as respect drives the conversation and this is certainly the case here.
My two cents, ohms, pf (as you prefer)
I think the pedal ethics debate has reached the same level as religion and politics. Things that are best stayed well away from on internet forums. Life's too short to get pulled into the debate that cannot ever be concluded.+1
I guess I can sum it up as "if you are gonna steal, do it from the best, but put something of yourself into it and make it your own". :D
I agree you shouldn't strive to build your entire company off someone else's work but selling a few to get yourself up and off the ground isn't a horrible thing.
I wouldn't call myself commercial in any way but I get all sorts of requests all the time. I built a lot for all my musician buddies, a lot of the time getting my parts cost or nothing back for it. I was testing one of my BM that I built at a good buddies house and he just had to have one. Made one for him and soon enough my other good friend in a band and both of their bass players were down my neck for one.
I just read through this thread to see if my views had changed from 2012 through right now, on the eve of launching a pedal company with my partners madbean and pickdropper...
Nope. ;D I still stand by my comments, even though my financial stake in the pedal business is now radically different.
*pats self on back*
Let DIYers be regarded more like a good luthier, rather than some geek in his basement hunched over a card table.This is what people see me I'm afraid to confirm...I've given up on making pedals even for friends, I've made one for a friend just a couple of weeks ago and I've composed a sheet of all the parts used and links to where one could find em on the interwebz with prices and all, with the total for all at the bottom. Then I told him "this is what it cost me, you are free to give me ANY amount over that amount". After a lot of hassle where I've lost many hours of repairing a pot that he had killed due to abusing the pedal the next day he got it, and answering his many questions why his crappy adapter won't work well, why is there noise when he stacks eleven overdrives on top of my pedal etc etc, in the end he paid me only the amount that I've put into it that the sheet showed at the bottom.
heck, if I actually charged my pro rata hourly rate from my day job....my pedals would be like Cornish prices (!) ::) 8)
heck, if I actually charged my pro rata hourly rate from my day job....my pedals would be like Cornish prices (!) ::) 8)
Honestly I don't see a problem with that. You're not doing anything that he isn't. He totally charges based on the fact that he has some very famous users, that's all. Same goes for DAM and any other boutique builder.
Yet I see people peddling their wares that aren't as well made as yours for much more...
You may not be qualified but you have experience and skill. That counts easily as much as qualifications in my book. Thankfully that was also the case in my last real job as I had no qualifications, just experience.
Agree though, people wont pay for it because they expect you to build something by hand, that's a custom one off, for the price of something mass produced and made in China in the cheapest possible way.
People are arses.
I think I've reached a point, I shall call it the Meh-Point. It's like an epiphany wrapped in lethargy. The realisation that people are arses and the fact that I've ceased caring. I wish everyone the best and all. But you know what, I just don't care any more. At some point I'll have to again. But I'm using the theory that the sale of the race car keeps me going for 10 months and if I sell the Porsche this year also, that should keep me going at least another year. During that time I can chill, make some pedals and not care about working for arseholes in a company that is intrinsically evil, or indeed having to appease demanding/awkward customers.
I feel the civilised world, society or whatever you want to call it is doomed. Greed, selfishness and corruption are rife and go unpunished. That and this generation's sense of entitlement will see it all go to hell before long.
Edit: I may have gone off on a slight tangent there...
Yet I see people peddling their wares that aren't as well made as yours for much more...
You may not be qualified but you have experience and skill. That counts easily as much as qualifications in my book. Thankfully that was also the case in my last real job as I had no qualifications, just experience.
Agree though, people wont pay for it because they expect you to build something by hand, that's a custom one off, for the price of something mass produced and made in China in the cheapest possible way.
That and this generation's sense of entitlement will see it all go to hell before long.
What it does mean is that if you want to get established and be the next Klon, you have to play the game. Hype, waiting lists, TGP, etc. It might involve selling your soul a little, but maybe that's what has to be done now?
A lot of people buy pedals with the intention of trying them in their rig and seeing what happens. If they don't work out, they flip them and (usually) take a bit of a hit, but can still reclaim there money and move on to the next flavor of the month pedal. Resale value on pedals from unknown builders can be tough, in large part because people have a difficult time quantifying exactly what it is. This is often even worse if it's a direct copy of a commercial pedal.
A lot of people buy pedals with the intention of trying them in their rig and seeing what happens. If they don't work out, they flip them and (usually) take a bit of a hit, but can still reclaim there money and move on to the next flavor of the month pedal. Resale value on pedals from unknown builders can be tough, in large part because people have a difficult time quantifying exactly what it is. This is often even worse if it's a direct copy of a commercial pedal.
This is wholly alien to my mindset -- I don't think I would be able to bring myself to do it.
My mindset is --
1. Research, research, research. Ask around what other people think of it (people whose opinions you respect), find out historical information (this doesn't always happen, depending on how it strikes me), nerd out a bit.
2. Assess. Do I have something that covers this already? Will I enjoy building it enough to negate that? (I still have no idea why I've built so many big muff pedals.) Is the cash outlay worth it?
3. Save up. Save save save. I hate getting loans, hire purchase, or lay-by.
4. Buy.
5. Wait for the goddamn shipping.
6. Enjoy!
7. Hang onto it and never sell.
I think the only guitar pedal I've bought is my Pitchblack tuner.
Just "feeding the beast" if you will.
Just "feeding the beast" if you will.
Is that like grooming the wookie?
Limited market, depending, for that. You have to be flogging stuff people want (had to give away my minimoog pcb's, for example!)
Just "feeding the beast" if you will.
Is that like grooming the wookie?
Kind of like this
Disclaimer: this is 100% my dog! she is a dope!
Add $5000000 for 1590a enclosure no matter the circuit! Haha!
Well, I think that most people think you're going to work at Chinese sweatshop rates. ;-)
Looking at the economics, if I design my own pedals, get the PCBs manufactured (in China, 4-6 week lead time and the quality is ... interesting, lifting pads, anyone ? ) - I then source the parts as cheaply as possible, take 3-4 hours to build, I spray my own cases, take them up to the local UV printer and pay a small fortune to get logos etc baked on.... yes, I can make a profit, as long as the buyer is reasonable.
Trouble is, they're not. They mainly (experience with synth DIY here) want something for nothing.
That's a lot of work for nothing.
Sorry for taking the thread slightly off topic. I generally find that the moral issues don't crop up if you can't find a decent market for your goods, anyway. I was going to build an add on box for the Korg MS20 Mini reissue synth. Korg originally made some expander boxes in the 70's, they haven't reissued any with the new MS20. I thought yep, design a few bits, box up, there's a market. Then I bounced it off new Korg owners and they basically wanted to pay less for a hand made box than the actual bare enclosure would cost. ;-)
A volume manufacturer can always undercut you.
By the same token, here's a moral argument as well: how can so many pedal manufacturers justify such huge markups ????
Add $5000000 for 1590a enclosure no matter the circuit! Haha!
Ha, that's basically 90%+ of anything I do that isn't FFX related.
I am certainly with you there bud. Guys that can build in those boxes deserve the extra$$$$$$$$.
I am certainly with you there bud. Guys that can build in those boxes deserve the extra$$$$$$$$.
Add $5000000 for 1590a enclosure no matter the circuit! Haha!
Ha, that's basically 90%+ of anything I do that isn't FFX related.