Hey Guys!
My nephew is turning out to be quite the musician. At almost 14, he is a really good drummer. I think of the bands I was in at that age and we couldn't find a steady drummer anywhere. The rate at which he is picking up stuff is really amazing. He has taught himself to play bass, guitar, keys, and he can sing to boot. Love that kid. He came home from a drum workshop last weekend and said the instructor there said he needed Pro Tools so he could start laying down tracks and analyze his playing, as well a start writing music. I try to support him in his music (guitar, pedals, sticks, cymbals...) because my sister and her husband are just making ends meet. I am going to spring for the gear and software he needs, I just don't want to get him anything that is going to be super hard for he and I to learn and use. I was thinking of getting him the Zoom R16 Multitrack Recorder/DAW Control Surface and a version of Pro Tools (which one I dunno). I like the idea of the R16 because he can record with it on the go and then come home and work with the raw tracks on Pro Tools. Also I want to get a good all purpose mic for him. I have a vintage Unidyne III that I use on my amp at church. The church has a SM57 that I could use instead freeing up the Unidyne III for him. I have read they are nice for recording drums. I am thinking my budget is around $500-$600. What would you guys suggest?
Tim, I'm just in the process of getting some recording gear together for myself! I've been doing a lot of research, so hopefully I can help.
At the $500-600 range you're looking at giving him a good start, but maybe not a complete solution.
It depends on a few things like how many channels and how you're going to edit things. Does that include a computer? If not, what kind of inputs does the computer have? What about mic stands? Mic cords? Proper headphones and monitors for recording mixing?
To put this in perspective, to get 4 channels in to my computer and the mics and other equipment I need to record, mix and master my stuff it would cost 3 grand to replace the equipment I've gathered so far before adding the cost of my computer (Mac Book Pro... a gift from a friend).
Here's what I have setup:
Interface = Presonus Audiobox 44vsl ($300 new, 4 mic pres, USB 2.0 interface, comes with Studio One Artist DAW)
DAW = Presonus Studio One 2 Pro ($300 new, upgrade from Artist version, adds functionality and features I wanted in my DAW)
Controller = Presonus Faderport ($150 new, used for mixing)
4 mic stands = About $100
4 high quality mic cords = $100 in materials (I built them myself)
Monitors = Event TR6 pair ($600 new, you can get much cheaper ones)
Headphones = Behringher ? ($40, I don't recommend them, but you can get some decent ones for under $50)
Mic 1 = SM58 ($100 new, staple, similar to the 57, rarely used)
Mic 2 = Beyerdynamic M201TG ($300 new, like a 57 but better, used on snare and electric cabs)
Mic 3 = Audio Technica Pro37r ($200 new, small diaphragm condenser, great on acoustic and drums)
Mic 4&5 = Rode NT1a ($250 each new, large diaphragm condenser, for vocals, acoustic and drums)
Mic 6 = Beyerdynamic M88TG ($350 new, used for kick, bass cabs, and probably electric cabs also)
Big list, but that's what I had available. You should note that in many cases I've bought stuff used, so I probably have spent less than 2 grand rather than the just over 3 grand in rounded new prices. I have paid full price on some things in the past though, merely for the warranty if not the other benefits. The point being, that's what it's taken me to get enough channels and power and quality to make what I consider to be decent recordings and eventually good mixes. This is my spring and summer project really, another album.
In your nephew's case, you and he need to sort out how many inputs you need, what sort of quality level you're wanting to get, and what the end purpose will be. If he's wanting to put out an album like I am, he and you will need to find some creative solutions to come up with the end result. In my case, some gear I've had a long time, and others I've saved for and purchased more recently. In your case, it might be make savvy purchases now in preperation for more purchases down the road. My biggest advice is to not rush out and purchase, but do a LOT of research and come up with a clear path to the end goal.
Jacob
Thanks Jacob,
Yeah, much research before shelling out cash always is wisest. Definitely going to start with a barebones setup. They have a newer laptop that he can use, but I think my folks will probably get him a computer for his birthday if I get the other things. I was thinking the R16 would be good for him because he could have it set up on a stand in his drum kit to make it easy to record his playing, then he could use it as a contol surface if he wants to take anything he lays down further and make it into a whole song with other instruments. It isn't gonna ever be a gold record making machine, but I think it would be good for what he needs right now and probably through high school. I still don't know if it is Pro Tools compatible. It is described as Cubase, Logic, and Sonar compatible in the product literature.
I am really trying to encourage him to take writing seriously because publishing and session work can be a nice living without having to constantly tour and he seems like more of a settle down someday kid but definitely wants to have a career in music. Allowing him to get into recording right now could really open up alot of good doors for him through college and beyond. Any other opinions and ideas are most welcome.
I just looked at that unit via google images, and it's pretty sleek looking. Zoom constantly surprises me. I always thought they were junk, like the digitech and boss crap from when I was a kid, but then stuff like that makes me think again.
It sort of reminds me of the Tascam cassette 4 track my school's music program got back when I was in High School. I don't know how many lunch breaks I spent learning to record drums (poorly) and bounce tracks so I could try and get my guitar, Bass and Vocals on there too...
If he wants to learn, tell him to seriously consider the Glyn Johns method for recording drums: http://homerecording.about.com/od/recordingtutorials/a/glyn_johns.htm (http://homerecording.about.com/od/recordingtutorials/a/glyn_johns.htm). If it was good enough for Bonham...
Jacob
The presonus package is a good product. Studio one is fantastic.
The presonus preamps are doing a good job as well. I hate the drivers though. You need a good machine to make it work.
To record a complete drumset i would try to find a firepod or a firestudio on ebay. Firepod is my best choice by far as the drivers are way better and the product are quite identic otherwise. Firestudio, though, comes with studio one artist.
As far as the mics goes. We have in Europe these kinds of packs:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_dc4000_drummikrofonset.htm
They're doing the job good enough to fool any non trained professionals.
And then for voice and a lot of other stuff, this one is just a plain miracle for the price. Actually, it's just a miracle, period:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_sc450.htm
This one certainly exists in the US with another branding but i would not take the risk. If it helps, i would order and ship for you if the shop does do it.
I would add three mic stands on top of that.
wow, big world the one you're talking about.
the first thing i wanna say is: don't push your nephew too much in a music career, let him choose and prospect him the bad sides (there's a lot of them) and what could go really wrong.
after that i can suggest you to hang around at gearslutz, there you can film zillions of problems and answers for your questions.
third, i say you/yr nephew need(s) a computer for sure, an audio interface, a pair of monitors,maybe headphones, a few mics.
even the minimum stuff will require big bucks, eventually you'll understand that, and a lot of efforts.
better stuff will cost you a lot more, but it will be certainly better, quality&sound-wise.
i have the home recording bug myself.
if the boy main instrument is the drums, i can say you are screwed. you'll need money.
but you can use a nice combination of brain and mics.
maybe a 4 mics setup like snare,BD,OHs can do the trick.
actually i have an awesome minimal drum kit and 5 mics: snare, BD, floor tom, 2 mics as room/ohs sound, they are AEA r48 and Gefell umt70s. my dynamics are beer m201, m88, sennheiser 421.
i can do everything with these and i have an enormous verity of sounds.
(yeah, big money, but i build my own studio preamps and compressor, so i save there somehow)
another VERY important thing is a good room sound. if you have a nice sounding room, you have half the work done.
you'll have your time learning all this stuff
good luck
spend most of it on your interface/pres and mics. recording software is cheap and you can only polish crap so much ;)
If i were in your position, i would do this:
Software- Reaper- $60 (full featured daw, 60 bucks instead of 600)
I've used pro tools for years and i recently switched to reaper instead of upgrading to pro tools 10. It's much lighter on your cpu and does pretty much everything pro tools can do.
Interface- $300 there are tons of good ones, including some mentioned earlier, but definitely get one with four good pre's on it. also look at the m-audio, focusrite, and motu stuff. I'd spend about 300 or more on the interface/pre's and skip the 16 track recorder. The converters on a good interface will kick the crap out of the converters on the multitrack, plus multitracks are pretty much going the way of the dodo. Their only real strenght is portability, which is arguable considering most laptop setups these days.
Mics- $200 start him out with a few sm57's. The unidyne is pretty much a 57 if you want to throw that in, but you can get 57's on ebay for 75 bucks used all day long. Four can get you a really good drum sound.
Spend an extra fifty or so on a few cables. Don't have to be the best. Get four 20 footer's.
Eventually he will want some better overheads, room treatment, etc. but he can get some great recordings with what ive mentioned. I had alot less starting out and i was quite impressed with what came out of it. It's really easy to get wrapped up in gear, but what matters is how you use it. No matter what you have,
Quote from: dwstanford on March 13, 2012, 09:52:38 PM
It's really easy to get wrapped up in gear, but what matters is how you use it. No matter what you have,
Yeah, with the pedals this can happen so easily too. I always find myself building some, weeding out what is too redundant or not used enough, and trimming the board back down.
Thanks for the good advice guys. That Presonus Audiobox 44vsl is pretty slick. youtube is great for checking this stuff out. Must study much more before opening wallet.
DW's advice is awesome.
The great thing about that Audiobox is that it comes with full software. I hear good things about reaper as well, but with many interfaces you don't even need to purchase a DAW.
I spent a week watching tutorials on using Studio One, and it's part of the reason I went with the Audiobox. I was also considering going with the Motu 4 Pre, but it was an extra $150 and I would still need a DAW. I bought the 44VSL used and got a used copy of the Studio One Pro for $400. I bet you could get a 44VSL with just the basic software for $200 used. Then I would go:
Used 44VSL: $200
Used Beta 52: $120
Used SM57: $80
Used MXL 603s pair: $80?
4x mic stands: $100
4x mic cables: $50
Cheap Recording headphones: $20
= $650
In the future he can upgrade the mics, get monitors, add to the mic collection, etc. but with that he could get rolling and learn a lot. Spend time and energy learning about mic placement, room treatment, and mixing skills. That will pay off later with better gear.
Jacob
+1 on DW's advice.
I personally use Ableton Live, but I have heard a lot of good things about Reaper.
I use a Motu Audiointerface (this one: http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/ultralite-mk3 (http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/ultralite-mk3) ) and absolutely love it.
My advice with recording gear would be to buy a few quality pieces (a few good mic's, good interface, good headphones etc.), rather than a lot of cheaper equipment. The cheaper equipment will only become redundant in the long run, and its resale value will not be very high.
You only really need four decent mic's for a decent drum recording; Led Zep four was all recorded using this method (Glyn Johns technique)!
Let us know what you decide on.
+1 for Reaper. I switched from Sonar to Reaper a few years ago and don't miss Sonar one bit.
This may be sacrilege, but I'd consider getting an electronic drum kit (V drums) for recording. The samples available today are amazing. He could just record straight midi, then replace the sounds with samples of his choice. You could tweak forever, and there would be no need for multiple mics, pre's, phase considerations etc. etc.
This ^^
I've always struggled to get good drums on anything I've recorded. I recently got a Roland TD-4KX2-S V-series for under a grand. They were bought by a guy who never even took them out of the box! He had a couple other sets and never got to opening them up. It was a quick Craigslist score. They really sound incredible and the sensitivity/dynamics are really good. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference on a recording.
I use an mbox. Protools can be a pain to use though. Been using garage band lately since I got a mac :D
There was a guy on the gearpage using just a interface with his iPad and the stuff sounded phenomenal.
In my opinion material/composition trumps recording gear...
Here's a good article to read http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2012/Apr/Studio_Legends_Alan_Parsons_on_Dark_Side_of_the_Moon.aspx
Josh
Not that I advocate this product, but since you were/are considering it, check this out: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2887470-Zoom-R16-MINT (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2887470-Zoom-R16-MINT)
Jacob
+1 on Reaper- great product, great price, great support community. Also: http://www.groove3.com/str/reaper-4-explained.html
C
I'm pretty familiar with Ableton myself, but I've never had a legit copy. *cough*piracy*cough*
If he's interested at all in producing electronic music (ie anything with samples), I think Ableton is the best way to go. You can get an MAudio Fast Track Pro or Ultra for an ADC interface, a small MIDI controller (MAudio Axiom series?) and a couple mics (probably a SM57 for the bass/snare, and a pencil condenser for the overhead), you can get a decent sound, especially with lots of post-processing or sampling. A decent pair of headphones can sort of suffice for monitors as long as the listen to the master track on at least a couple of other systems. This is assuming he has access to a decent PC or MAC.
Ableton is unbelievably powerfull for electronic music composition. I have been using it since version 3 and it has just got better and better. I'm used to it and comfortable with it so I'm not going to swap over anytime soon.
I think Reaper is quickly becoming people's choice though due to its cost, reliability and frequent updates.
Pro Tools has always been a bit of a joke IMO. They suck you in and then make you fork out the £ for upgrades etc. There are better bargains to be had than ProTools in the DAW world IMO.
+1 on the V-Drums. My brother has a set and loves them, and more importantly, his girlfriend also loves the peace and quiet ;)
Quote from: raulduke on March 15, 2012, 02:43:19 AM
+1 on the V-Drums. My brother has a set and loves them, and more importantly, his girlfriend also loves the peace and quiet ;)
YUP!!!
Drums are always the hardest instrument to record and usually the most expensive. For your budget it sounds like you might have to make a few compromises.
Personally I just use Logic Express on my Macbook Pro with a Tascam US-144 interface and a SM57. It has two mic/line inputs, which doesn't give you a lot of options for drums necessarily. But for a young person just getting into recording, you really just need to keep it simple. Getting a couple of condensors or a condensor and a SM57 would be a usable rig. As tough as drums are to record, having to mix 4-6 microphones can be too much work for someone who has no idea how to do it.
A good friend of mine that plays drums (along with a host of other things) introduced me to ProTools a few years ago. He had a pretty simple setup at first, but it yielded usable results. He got a kit of Audix budget level drum mics and ran them through a mixer into his interface. It was basically three tom/snare mics, two overheads, and a kick drum mic. I don't know how much it cost him, but that may be something to look for. It was nothing special but it got the job done.
Everyone records their own way, and there are definitely no steadfast rules. I've heard what should be a good drum track sound terrible and a cheaply recorded drum track sound pretty good. In the end, try to find an interface that let's you expand your setup later on if you want to keep going that way while in the present you provide a decent, if minimalist, rig.
I should add to my brief advice earlier: you'd want to get a condenser if you want more detail/less midrangy lo-fi-ness that an SM57 provides; ADK, Studio Projects, and Audio Technica are strong, good value brands. Condensers are generally preferred on acoustic guitar, piano, vocals, cymbals etc
As far as recording drums goes...a single SM57 would be fine for recording something and hearing himself back. If his recording advances, he can use it on the snare and supplement it with a kick drum mic and overheads down the road
Thanks guys, you all really have been helping me with this alot. I have been reading and reading about this stuff. Looking at getting (all are subject to change).
Interface: ($300) Presonus Audiobox 44vsl
DAW: (Free) Presonus Studio One Artist (included with Audiobox 44vsl)
Mics: ($220) CAD Audio GXL2200SP Studio Pack (one GXL2200 condenser, one GXL 1200
Condenser plus stands cables and pop screen. (most likely to change)
(Free) SM57 and UniDyne III that my dad has in a drawer plus cables
PC: (Free) Laptop from my parents for his birthday.
That should allow him to get going, and start studying about recording techniques and methods. I think he can expand on the quality of mics and DAW upgrades as he can afford. He is good at saving money and has built himself a decent drum kit so I don't doubt that he'll save for some better mics and stuff.
I think more than he is a "drummer", or a "guitarist", or any other sort of instrument specific label he is a musician and music lover. Recording at home is the next part of his journey as he has got listening and playing down. He has no idea that we are going to do this yet so it is pretty exciting. Thanks again for any additional input on what I have listed above.
instead of the CAD package, I'd recommend this similar one by Audio Technica http://www.amazon.com/Technica-AT2041-Studio-Microphone-Package/dp/B000AQDSMQ/ref=sr_1_3?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1331918922&sr=1-3
I bought mine from a store on ebay which threw in some mic cables too
I used only those mics on this recording: http://www.filefreak.com/files/874516_k0dwo/Diamonds1.mp3
2021 near the 12th fret, 2020 added as a spaced pair. 2020 on vocals.
I'm at a point now where I'd like to get something a little nicer, but I could see myself using these later
Timbo! Great progress. I like that plan. That frees him to add/upgrade mics as you move forward. Really, until you're putting out full fledged production quality CD's that about all you'll really need, a few mics and 4 inputs into your computer.
About the CAD vs AT mics... really you're asking the question of green vs red apples. Is one better? Not likely. They both cover the same ground, and they're both low end mics from companies that supply a wide range from low to mid quality. It's more important to learn to use them as best you can.
I wills say that based on my experience with Audio Technica mics, I would happily use them again. I used the 40 series primarily though, so that's different I guess. I do think sometimes about upgrading my LDC to the AT4050...
Jacob
That sounds like a pretty kick ass first rig if you ask me. He'll be able to crank out some pretty decent recordings right off the bat.
There are some great resources on youtube, etc on recording techniques.
I like to listen to podcasts on my way to work like:
Sound On Sound Podcast
Pensado's Place (also has a you tube channel)
Inside Home Recording
Home Recording Show
Simply Recording Podcast
Also, Tape Op magazine is a good resource (and it's free)
He'll learn the most by doing things himself, but these resources give some great tips on how to make your recordings more profesional without spending alot of money on unnecessary stuff.
Quote from: jkokura on March 16, 2012, 10:57:22 AM
About the CAD vs AT mics... really you're asking the question of green vs red apples. Is one better? Not likely.
except not really. look at the hyped high end frequency response on the CAD--(typical of cheap chinese mics) and extended low end of the AT
(http://i.imgur.com/cqk6T.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/rgHMr.png)
...+1 on Sound on Sound and Tape Op
Fair enough Jeff. However, my comment wasn't about their differences, but rather that one is not better than the other. All you've proved is that those mics are different, not that one is better than the other. Cost and features put them in the same quality range. As mentioned, I'd pick the AT mics myself, but if a good deal can be found on the CAD mics with some stands and cables, that's worth looking at.
Truthfully, at that price range there are DOZENS of mics to be chosen from. If I were looking at CAD mics myself I'd likely get another M179, as I've had one in the past and found it to be quite a good mic. Used, it would be a better mic for the same money as either a new GXL2200 or AT2020.
Jacob
The AT2020 is a killer budget mike. Its really really good value.
However, it wouldn't surprise me if all the mic's in the low price range are made in the same factory in China.
SE mic's are also well worth looking at; they punch well above their weight.
As for recording drums; I just read a thread on GearSlutz about the Black Keys 'Brothers' album. Most of the drums on that album were recorded with two mics!
The album was also mixed totally in the box, which surprised me as its one of the most 'analogue' sounding records I've heard in years.
Yeah, you're not gonna get a dynamite condenser in that price range, but either will get the job done. You can occasionally find a rode nt5 pair for 250 on eBay. That's a steal for those mics. Also look for shure ksm32's used for around the same price (single). I would get him the cheaper ones now and he can save up for the better stuff. He'll be able to learn the difference between dynamic and condenser and what sounds best with what, and that's more important than how great the mic represents the highs, etc.