Messages

He also mentioned that the myth that true bypass is "better" is just that and is based more on the early boutique builders's ability to get their hands on 3pdt switches to wire them up than some better sound.

That's not a myth. In some ways they are superior to buffered switching: they are a real copper path without any resistance, they won't introduce any electronic noise. In other ways electronic switches are better: no bounce, they can be ramped... It's not black and white, and nobody ever who understands a switch (duh) argued that it is.

Its not quite that simple however. Cables, wires, traces, leads, they all have resistance AND capacitance to them. Its small, but real. And those factors can degrade your signal (usually in the form treble loss, but can get into the upper mids sometimes). The more stuff between your guitar and your amp, the bigger a problem this can be. So if you're on stage with a 50ft cable, or with 30 pedals warming the floor in front of you, your sound may end up a bit more wooly than you'd expect.

Enter the buffer. Even a simple buffer (assuming its well designed) will keep your signal strong and healthy. Unfortunately, some pedals don't play well with the high input/low output impedance of buffers, so you need to take that into account when building your effects order (early Fuzzes and Wah pedals are notorious for this).

And, oddly enough, some artists actually LIKE that cable induced signal degradation (example, Jimi Hendrix had a fondness for extra long coiled cables because they "warmed up" his tone).

So in reality, both true-bypass and buffered-bypass have their uses. What will be best depends on the needs of the circuit, the wants of the player, and the individual situation of the rig.

Yes, all true. But I was specifically only talking about the switching. It does have other implications, as you stated. To me the most sensible, general approach would be: have at least one pedal with buffered bypass in your setup, in the beginning, or after the fuzz, whatever makes sense. And make the rest true bypass with either 3PDT or relay switching. This way you will mitigate the disadvantages of having only cable between the guitar and the amp and can have as many hardware switches as you want afterwards.

I honestly can't understand how this topic can be made up to be such a complicated issue. I have used thousands of 3PDT switches, I've only ever had three switches that were bad from the start. One didn't switch at all, two were loud. But neither I nor anyone else I've sold to ever had a problem with noise from switching. Maybe there are fundamental quality differences between them, I don't know. But if that really is a problem, buffered bypass (use an opamp instead of transistors if you intend to cascade more of these) with JFETs or optocouplers can be made silent. Instead of "cutting" the signal like a harware switch does, their resistance can be ramped up or down over the course of a couple milliseconds.

I've longed for putting these two builds together in the same enclosure with the ability to switch the order for the two effects.  Knowing that doesn't work so well for a treble boost, I began exploring the topology of John Patton's Fallstaff Overdrive, a buffered treble booster.

Really, it doesn't? Please elaborate.

This all appeared to work fine until it didn't.  I got a lot of hum in that part of the circuit.

Hum doesn't have anything to do with the switching. There is something else you're doing wrong.

Ok, onto my question.  I asked Josh how he decides whether a pedal will be true bypass or buffered bypass.  His answer changed the way I'm starting to look at switching.  He mentioned that switching is hands down the most complicated part of a pedal often as people was the bypass or circuit engage to happen with no noise.

If that's the case for him, he should try reading a book.

He also mentioned that the myth that true bypass is "better" is just that and is based more on the early boutique builders's ability to get their hands on 3pdt switches to wire them up than some better sound.

That's not a myth. In some ways they are superior to buffered switching: they are a real copper path without any resistance, they won't introduce any electronic noise. In other ways electronic switches are better: no bounce, they can be ramped... It's not black and white, and nobody ever who understands a switch (duh) argued that it is.

JHS pedal switching is designed per pedal; if true bypass fits that circuit with minimal noise, they'll go with that.  Or they'll go with a buffer.  Or opto.  Or relay.

Or maybe he just copies the switching that was used in the original pedal he is cloning? You either want a buffered bypass, or you don't. You either want a hardware switch, or you don't. What does that have to do with switching a flanger or a booster? And the fact that he didn't support that statement with any sort of arguments or examples, probably means again he is clueless.

I've been thinking about switching on the end result of the effect (true bypass or buffer).  I'm now starting to think about it based on whether or not the transition between the effect and the bypass signal has no big click, and figure out how to make it happen.  Perhaps you all think this way already, but I didn't.

Sorry to be so blunt, that's just non-technical jabbering, same as from Josh the expert.

One final thing.  Josh mentioned through all of his studying and research into switching, he feels that the Japanese may have gotten it right with the Boss/Ibanez design of the flip/flop transistor design.  I see very few of these in DIY pedals.  I also think it would be incredibly difficult to build a stand alone board for this type of switch and market it as such, which is why I don't see any of these.  So to the people who do layout, why don't you use the flip flop switch design?  Has the relay switch, which I think at a mechanical level achieves a similar workflow, replaced them in modern building?

If you build a Fuzz Face, the flip-flip circuit takes more parts than the effect, not very satisfying. 3PDT switch is the easiest solution from a building standpoint, so that's what DIY guys use. A relay is more akin to a 3PDT switch, it is a mechanical switch with a metal path for the signal, it bounces. You need to learn to differentiate between the actuator and the actual switching element for the signal. With the 3PDT, it's the same. With everything else, it isn't.

In that case I would probably try to fix it myself. What a luthier will probably do better though is fix it cosmetically. Also, happy birthday!

I watched THIS the other day. Your break seems easier to fix because its longer and hopefully has no pieces missing. Still very annoying and sad, you have my sympathies  .

I don't know. Last time I went shopping for a bigger electronic appliance was a washing machine. Went in there, looked at the three options in my price range, asked one question to a sales person, decided and paid, had it in my car 5min later.

Might be down to cultural differences. I've had several americans tell me they felt neglected or even offended from the service by the staff they received in german shops or restaurants. Me, I'm just happy not being bothered unless I actually want something.

You can measure these high resistances with any multimeter in voltage mode as long as you know its input resistance. Most DMMs have 10M.

And here I thought I would win the crazyness award once I post about rolling capacitors. You take the win, chapeau! 

Thanks Lee for typing this reasonable response. I'm actually a bit surprised myself I got upset by this topic, after all it's just the interwebz. Of course I am aware that there are many shades of environmental awareness and it's an uphill battle. Usually I try to educate and point out alternatives where I think somebody might go the wrong way. But somehow I expect better from the people I hang with, even if it's just on a forum (I might be new here, but I'm not in electronics DIY). Building electronics yourself does require more mental capacity than flipping burgers, so I'm disappointed by seeing somebody who I assume should know better blatantly and knowingly ignoring what to me is basic responsible behavior.

I saw the topic already days ago, but I felt like others had said already what had to be said concerning the environmental side of it, so I kept my mouth shut. I realize that half of what you said before was probably in jest, but when you mentioned Amazon en passant you hit a nerve. Closely related to the current environmental issues, it's this general spirit of consumerism that is really a red flag to me. The constant shopping of mostly useless crap, new phone every year, throwing good stuff out because it's not the latest model of xyz, so many bullshit products everywhere that serve no actual purpose. And particularly Amazon is the culprit that helped spawn this behavior. Not to mention the way their workers are treated and getting paid, bullying states or cities into tax cuts by one of the richest and most powerful companies, destroying returned items in masses instead of repairing or giving them away at a lower price or to welfare because that's cheaper, ... The list is really endless.

Sawing the branch we're all sitting on together without any regard for the people around you isn't a reasonable thing to do. But gladly things seem to be changing a lot in the US as well now for the last two or three years, the Donald seems to be the trigger for bringing up all sorts of important issues in protest to him. China is showing signs of trying to move in the right direction as well, so I am actually hopeful we as humans still can turn this ship away from the iceberg. I am also convinced that it is us, the engineers or technically minded people in general, who have to lead and will make the necessary progress to make it happen. But we have to do it in a way that everybody is able and willing to follow. You vote every couple of years for your government, but you vote every day with the money you spend, and every buck counts.

I'm still going to use them. I use Amazon prime too. It's a similar experience. Drone delivery is going to be even better!

How about learning to plan further ahead than where your next meal comes from? Amazon daily deliveries, sure . People like you... Any sort of environmental or moral conscience is just 404. Murica first, me firster!

There are rotary speakers from other manufacturers as well, that go for way less money than real Leslies. If you're in Europe look for Dynacord for example.

Hang it on a lab power supply and test it! 

This is how it's usually done: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowbar_(circuit)

Also, you don't have to hide every single component. If a couple stick out of the sandwich, so be it. Doesn't give anything away really.

Any reason the HB2 shouldn't be built into a conventional enclosure?

I remember this one: https://newatlas.com/dean-fraser-matchstick-stratocaster/43728/

Even a bit crazier...

Measure with the multimeter which two pins are the heater.