Author Topic: The Official Coronavirus Discussion  (Read 30063 times)

somnif

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2020, 12:53:09 AM »
Somnif, I heard that some hospitals got rid of their alcohol hand sanitizer stations, as staff were not washing their hands and just using that -- was this true?

I know when my dad was in the hospital last autumn, there were hand sanitizer stations all over the place. I can't find any reports of hospitals getting rid of them, though that doesn't preclude local issues (I'll admit an American bias in my search results).

On a different note, all the bathrooms actually had instructions on proper hand washing technique too, both the bathrooms in the actual patient rooms and those in public areas.

somnif

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2020, 05:05:51 AM »
Oh, and since we're a DIY minded crowd, here are the WHO's formulas for alcohol hand sanitizer (these are 1L quantities)

Taken from "WHO Guidelines on Hand Hygiene in Health Care: First Global Patient Safety Challenge Clean Care Is Safer Care.": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK144054/

If using Ethanol:
a) 833.3mL 96% (v/v) Ethanol
b) 41.7mL 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
c) 14.5mL 98% glycerol
d) Bring to 1L with distilled water
-Resulting final concentrations (v/v): 80% ethanol, 1.45% glycerol, 0.125% hydrogen peroxide

If using isopropanol:
a) 757.6mL 99% (v/v) Isopropyl alcohol
b) 41.7mL 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
c) 14.5mL 98% glycerol
d) bring to 1L with distilled water
-Final concentrations (v/v): 75% isopropanol, 1.45% glycerol, 0.125% hydrogen peroxide

You should leave the mixture in it's final container 72 hours before use to ensure any spores present in the containers are killed.

Note the peroxide isn't there to help clean up your hands, it's in there to keep the bulk mixture clean as a spore inhibitor. Also as a note this stuff may leave a somewhat sticky residue if you use too much, but is also less likely to leave your hands dried out to the point of skin cracking.

(Also also, if you can't lay hands on 96% ethanol, you could use Everclear! Locally my stuff is 95% alcohol, so I'd need to use 842.1mL of the stuff to get a final concentration of 80% in the 1L mix.  ;D )

« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 05:14:16 AM by somnif »

Matmosphere

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2020, 07:57:01 AM »
I can some how easily obtain the ethanol but I have no idea where I can buy isopropanol.

somnif

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2020, 08:05:02 AM »
I can some how easily obtain the ethanol but I have no idea where I can buy isopropanol.

90% isopropyl is what I buy at my grocery store for cleaning resin off PCBs, it's in the first aid section next to the 70% stuff.  With that stuff I'd use 833.33mL of it to get to a 75% final cocnentration.

This is all hypothetical of course, I have both soap and hand sanitizer aplenty, so I'm not in need of homebrewing.

Axldeziak

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2020, 09:05:17 AM »
If you get really hard up for alcohol don't overlook the gas pump. I ride mopeds (the kind with pedals, not a scooter...) and I have to remove the alcohol from the pump gas or it deteriorates the seals and hoses on the bikes. It also messes up the oil mixture on the two stroke motors. It's a PITA.
To remove the alcohol you add water to the gas, shake it, and let it settle out into layers. (Try two to one water to alcohol. IE, 10% alcohol in gas, add 20% volume of water.) The alcohol will bond with the water and settle on the bottom of the container. Separate the fuel and alcohol by decanting. (I use a three liter pop bottle to make the layers easy to see.)
Then you pour salt into the water/alcohol solution to remove the water. About a four to one ratio, water to salt. (Or you could distill it.) The saltwater solution will sink and the alcohol will be the top later after it settles. Decant it again.
Then if you want to up the concentration of alcohol further let the liquid freeze and spoon the water ice out.
The alcohol I have removed this way is what I use to make solder flux using pine resin I collect from trees nearby and cook down. (Hey, I like science. It's free, and it gives me something constructive to do.)
Look up videos on it, it's all very easy to do.

davent

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2020, 11:25:14 AM »
I get 99.9% isopropyl at my local electronics mart. MG Chemicals  brand is the one they have, i use it to mix up vinyl cleaner.
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Leevibe

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2020, 10:30:22 PM »
If you get really hard up for alcohol don't overlook the gas pump. I ride mopeds (the kind with pedals, not a scooter...) and I have to remove the alcohol from the pump gas or it deteriorates the seals and hoses on the bikes. It also messes up the oil mixture on the two stroke motors. It's a PITA.
To remove the alcohol you add water to the gas, shake it, and let it settle out into layers. (Try two to one water to alcohol. IE, 10% alcohol in gas, add 20% volume of water.) The alcohol will bond with the water and settle on the bottom of the container. Separate the fuel and alcohol by decanting. (I use a three liter pop bottle to make the layers easy to see.)
Then you pour salt into the water/alcohol solution to remove the water. About a four to one ratio, water to salt. (Or you could distill it.) The saltwater solution will sink and the alcohol will be the top later after it settles. Decant it again.
Then if you want to up the concentration of alcohol further let the liquid freeze and spoon the water ice out.
The alcohol I have removed this way is what I use to make solder flux using pine resin I collect from trees nearby and cook down. (Hey, I like science. It's free, and it gives me something constructive to do.)
Look up videos on it, it's all very easy to do.

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alanp

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2020, 11:04:13 PM »
On a residential scale, the local chemist would be my first bet for getting isopropyl. Too many idiots buying it in bulk to make marijuana oil, otherwise. (Commercial scale, you probably already have an account with an industrial chemical supplier.)

Fun fact, when I wanted to buy some India Ink for labelling my pedals, the office supply shop kept it under the counter, as idiots kept shoplifting it to do ghetto tattoos.
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somnif

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2020, 11:57:09 PM »
On a residential scale, the local chemist would be my first bet for getting isopropyl. Too many idiots buying it in bulk to make marijuana oil, otherwise. (Commercial scale, you probably already have an account with an industrial chemical supplier.)

Annoyingly, today I learned most of my local pharmacists and grocery stores are actually out of stock of "rubbing alcohol" (both isopropyl and ethyl). It's getting a bit silly really.

EBK

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2020, 04:26:50 AM »
Time to set up a moonshine still, I guess.  ;)
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Aentons

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2020, 07:22:11 AM »
Has anybody you know actually had it yet? If so, how was it?

somnif

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2020, 07:28:30 AM »
Has anybody you know actually had it yet? If so, how was it?

Well, I've had a stuffy nose and sore throat all morning, I'll let you know.

(Ok in all seriousness, no it's not COVID-19. My sinuses are always a mess in the morning).

I'm tempted to put together a set of test primers if I have time though. Because... what the hell, I'm bored. Pretty useless without a thermocycler, polymerase, and gel frame, but... unemployment does strange things to the mind.

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2020, 09:31:56 AM »
Two cases in TN apparently.
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Axldeziak

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2020, 10:30:32 AM »
Two cases in TN apparently.
Can we really trust the numbers? Yesterday John Hopkins was reporting a case outside of Nashville. Now the number is still one but is now shown as being just outside Franklin.
And go look on the official CDC website. They don't even show a case in TN at all. And it says the numbers are posted at 12 noon every day but the number is from 4pm the day before. It should at least show the one.
Add to this the president just landed in Nashville a few minutes ago. If you have a confirmed case in or around a city, why would you allow the president of all people to land in that city? That's just stupid.
I don't trust the media at all and to be honest, the reporting on this entire thing has been sketchy as hell. A quick glance at the headlines shows they seem to be more worried about the world markets instead of the people.
The entire thing just stinks of either incompetence or outright malice. Or a combination of both.

benny_profane

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Re: The Official Coronavirus Discussion
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2020, 11:02:58 AM »
Two cases in TN apparently.
Can we really trust the numbers? Yesterday John Hopkins was reporting a case outside of Nashville. Now the number is still one but is now shown as being just outside Franklin.
And go look on the official CDC website. They don't even show a case in TN at all. And it says the numbers are posted at 12 noon every day but the number is from 4pm the day before. It should at least show the one.
Add to this the president just landed in Nashville a few minutes ago. If you have a confirmed case in or around a city, why would you allow the president of all people to land in that city? That's just stupid.
I don't trust the media at all and to be honest, the reporting on this entire thing has been sketchy as hell. A quick glance at the headlines shows they seem to be more worried about the world markets instead of the people.
The entire thing just stinks of either incompetence or outright malice. Or a combination of both.

The process to confirm a case had required sending samples to the CDC in Atlanta. The CDC publishes only those numbers. Now, state and local public health and medical systems are able to report their own numbers (this testing began the week of 2 March 2020). However, the availability of effective and accurate tests as well as the capacity to test has not scaled according to need (according to WHO testing guidelines).

From the CDC:
"CDC is no longer reporting the number of persons under investigation (PUIs) that have been tested, as well as PUIs that have tested negative. Now that states are testing and reporting their own results, CDC’s numbers are not representative all of testing being done nationwide."

The CDC's numbers are thus confirmed from their laboratories. Note that there has not been an adoption of international standardization of testing and discharge procedures. There are WHO guidelines and recommendations, but that does not mean that national, state, and local public health / medical systems are adhering to them.

It's been established with the genetic analysis of the virus in the Washington state outbreak that the mutations indicate there is possibly an order of magnitude higher case prevalence than is indicated by the published numbers. The incidence rate is also undetermined. Since testing in the US has prioritized high-risk patients for testing, the case numbers are artificially low and, possibly, the mortality rate is artificially high. The rate of asymptomatic infection and unconfirmed case existence is unknown.

The Johns Hopkins dashboard is a GIS tool that aggregates reported numbers. Check the citations on the online tool to determine where the numbers are coming from. The media is reporting from those numbers (and, unfortunately, based on statements from the HHS head, the USG is making policy decisions based on the dashboard as well).

The concern for the market is a real macro affect of the outbreak (edit: and it's easily measured and quantified). Much media attention has encouraged people to go out and purchase N95 respirators that they will not be able to use effectively and have no purpose for a member of the general public. Those are for frontline health workers and those exposed to sustained high viral loads. Advice for prevention is washing your hands, safe respiratory practices (e.g., covering sneezes), and ensuring that you are aware of your health state. If there are indications of illness, seek appropriate medical care. The media has not been effective at relaying the messages from the WHO, CDC, and NIH about preventative measures and latest understanding about COVID-19. I suggest that people read the health authorities' media briefings and public announcements for that type of information.

The WHO gives a daily press briefing from Geneva. I would encourage you to hear what is said in those briefings and compare that to what is reported. You might be surprised at what changes in the game of telephone that is reporting on medical issues.

The US was massively unprepared for this and the USG is playing catchup. The lack of information stems from the fact that there isn't capacity to test every suspected case and response systems did not scale nearly fast enough. There's also a big gulf in the ability to test priority cases as seen in Washington state. There's been a lack of coordination from the federal response and the WA state health authorities.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 11:39:31 AM by benny_profane »