How to Detect and Avoid Sourcing Fake MN3005s

[Scruffie]

This question is gunna keep coming up and people are going to keep getting ripped off and putting cash in to buying 3005s regardless of it being a bad idea so I figured this thread was a necessity. Regardless of the fact I doubt it'll put people off.

First! For those who are interested, What is the difference between a 3005 & 3205?
(This is my opinion, if you choose to have a different opinion, have fun buying fake chips)

While i'd like to say it's just mojo here, there is something in this one, a 3005 has the benefit of being able to run at a higher voltage for a higher headroom (15V compared to a 3205s 9V), it does also have some slightly different specs to the 3205 (higher THD being one of them).

Do they sound different? Well yes there will be a slight difference in tone due to the distortion characteristics not to mention 2 of the same BBDs can sound slightly different but that higher headroom can allow for less clipping in your delays.

However... if you are going to use a 3005 or 3001/2/3/4/5/6/7/9/11 for that matter, you will only get that higher headroom advantage by running at a higher voltage, the BOSS DM-2 probably famed for its use of the 3005 actually also used the 3205 for a time but they both run on 9V and as far as i'm aware, there was no out cry when they didn't tell anyone that they'd changed to a chip that actually runs Better on 9V than the higher voltage 3005 chip (it has a lower THD so should theoretically be better at 9V).

There is nothing wrong with the 320X series of BBDs, they work great and are used in a great deal of analogue delays, choruses etc. The BOSS DC-2 being an example, hightly sought after, yet it uses 3207s not 3007s. The New EHX (Deluxe) Memory Boy, Toy all use the 3208 BBDs, the MXR Carbon Copy, M-117R infact a huge percentage of delay based effects on the market have been happily using the 320X BBDs for years.


Now On to Detect & Avoid Buying Fake 3005 BBDs.

First off... Ebay, don't do it, while recently some people did manage to get lucky with real BBDs, 99% of the time you will get complete fakes or rebranded 3008s (half the delay time of a 3005)

It is a huge risk and you will likely end up out of pocket, ebay is flooded with fake chips as is the rest of the market, companies that offer to find rare parts are not immune to fakes and often supply them (EHX ended up with many fake 3005s for the new EHX Deluxe Memory Man w/ Tap Tempo and they have massive buying power).

There is NO safe way of buying a 3005, if you must have a higher voltage chip, I suggest you buy the fakes (3008s rebranded as 3005s) from Smallbearelec and using 2 to approximate a 3005, you'll get all the benefits of a 3005 such as higher headroom and whatever sound you beleive it has plus you're buying from a reputible source and saving a lot of money in the process!

If you insist on trying ebay, to try and detect a fake there's a few steps you can take
1) Ask for a picture with your username next to it of the exact chips you'll get.
2) Study them for a few things
- Are the Date Codes the Same on all the chips? (that's the 3 digit number) be very wary if they are.
- Does it look new? The chips have been out of production some time and a chip off ebay will most certainly be a karaoke machine pull, it shouldn't look brand new.
- Do they mention any sort of 'refurbing' of the chips, the suppliers don't care about a chips looks, this is most likely to trick you in to accepting why it looks wrong.
- Is there any obvious stamp smudges or sanding marks on the chip? A shallow indent on the top could indicate this too, it could indicate a chip that has been remarked as 3005 but is in fact, not.
- Is the seller offering large quantaties of the chip over a single or several listings? It's highly unlikely he found a very large batch and has several hundred chips at his disposal.

As a side note, make sure you have a method of testing the chips you get within whatever return/ ebay refund time period. Hopefully if these suppliers have to keep paying out they'll stop supplying the market with fakes and also this will mean you can get your money back. Make sure to use proper static protection when handling the chips to be sure you haven't damaged them and that what you are using to test them in is known to work, especially if you buy in larger quantities.

The Chips Appearance

Here is a great page showing the difference between fake and real 3005s

http://freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=8116&p=90518&hilit=mn3005

As can be seen here, there are TWO types of legitimate 3005, there are also TWO different branding stamps (the M & Tri Logo).

Look at the chips and notice

- Leg length, Shineyness and shaping
- How 'Square' and clean the chip looks and the overall shape
- Does it have a good border on the top of the chip? Some chips don't but it's something to look out for
- The Date Code, is it the same on all your chips?
- Does it have a good top indentation?
- Is there a good, deep front indentation, even if it doesn't have the full cut indent it should be deepish.
- Bottom Logo Indentation size

One final thing to check, once you have your chip, make sure it has the full delay time, you should be able to pull out around 300mS of Delay from a 3005 where a rebranded 3008 which will work in your 3005 delay, will only give you half the delay.

So there you have it! It is not easy to get a 3005 at all and I seriously suggest either accepting half the delay time with 3008s if you MUST have higher headroom or using a 3205 chip which are still happily in production and used by many happy customers.

[jimmybjj]

thanks for taking the time to do this. very appreciated.

[djaaz]

There's another question in there:

How do you troubleshoot a build when you can't be sure of your chip?

My dirtbag is waiting for another pair of chip but i'm not even sure the chip i have right now are fakes.

[djaaz]

And then another one:

Should one build something he doesn't understand at all?

Common sense says no i'm afraid, but that would make me stuck with basic fuzz/overdrive pedals, i'm afraid.

[Haberdasher]

great thread, scruffie.  that's nice work.  hopefully it saves someone some time and cash.

[Scruffie]

There's another question in there:

How do you troubleshoot a build when you can't be sure of your chip?

My dirtbag is waiting for another pair of chip but i'm not even sure the chip i have right now are fakes.

Irrelevant to the threads aim, if you wanna buy the chips, you should have something you know you can test them with, if that means buying a pedal, asking a friend or purchasing a 3008 from a legitimate source, that's up to you. Or just using 3205/7/8s which are brand new and pretty much guarnteed to work.

I would not stick chips in a pedal and declare them fake just because the build isn't working, especially with complex builds like delays. This is all in the risk of purchasing 3005s. If you don't know what you're doing, don't do it and invest lots of cash in expensive parts.

And then another one:

Should one build something he doesn't understand at all?

Common sense says no i'm afraid, but that would make me stuck with basic fuzz/overdrive pedals, i'm afraid.

Once again not really the point of the thread but i'll answer it here anyway, in my opinion... not really, but that'll never stop people doing it. I can't claim to fully understand the inner workings of a BBD based pedal but I know i'm a generally compitent builder and overtime have gathered the basics of them.

Going from Fuzz/Overdrive to Dirt bag delay is a huge step and I would never suggest it, if you wanted to move from dirt to something more complex my first step would be something like tremolo or phaser which are still going to be using standard components. Then it'd be PT2399 delay or chorus before something simple and preferably 320X BBD based.

great thread, scruffie.  that's nice work.  hopefully it saves someone some time and cash.

Cheers!

Hopefully! Kinda doubt it though, the power of mojo is strong with these chips and this build.

[djaaz]

Once again not really the point of the thread but i'll answer it here anyway, in my opinion... not really, but that'll never stop people doing it. I can't claim to fully understand the inner workings of a BBD based pedal but I know i'm a generally compitent builder and overtime have gathered the basics of them.

I really think it is kind of the point of the thread: If you can't test them, then it's even more complicated to source them and check them. I'm not assuming my chips are fake because my build does not work.
But as any newbie, wanting to build any clone. I'm trying to source the exact chips. Whatever clever alternatives exists.

Going from Fuzz/Overdrive to Dirt bag delay is a huge step and I would never suggest it, if you wanted to move from dirt to something more complex my first step would be something like tremolo or phaser which are still going to be using standard components. Then it'd be PT2399 delay or chorus before something simple and preferably 320X BBD based.

You're right, off topic sorry! But still an interesting question i think.
an BTW, i built a few things.

[LaceSensor]

Hopefully! Kinda doubt it though, the power of mojo is strong with these chips and this build.

Difficult to write this without it sounding negative but ill say it anyway.
I think the problem people have justifying the v3205 on this build is that it doesnt sound as good.

With stuff like the Aquaboy I think it was less apparent, but then again im basing this is stuff Ive read only.

This is problably why lots of people are fishing for MN3005 for the memory man...rather than just to say or think its "cool to have the exact chips". If the v3205 actually sounded the same I doubt as many people would care or risk the cash,.

[Scruffie]

Hopefully! Kinda doubt it though, the power of mojo is strong with these chips and this build.

Difficult to write this without it sounding negative but ill say it anyway.
I think the problem people have justifying the v3205 on this build is that it doesnt sound as good.

With stuff like the Aquaboy I think it was less apparent, but then again im basing this is stuff Ive read only.

This is problably why lots of people are fishing for MN3005 for the memory man...rather than just to say or think its "cool to have the exact chips". If the v3205 actually sounded the same I doubt as many people would care or risk the cash,.

It sounded different because of distorted repeats though correct? Not tonally.

That is down to the design, it's optimised for 15V and the lower output of the 3005s.
The DM-2/Aquaboy however, is designed to run on 9V happily so the switch was less of a headache.

I know you didn't get yours right so far but once I have all the parts i'm actually gunna breadboard the whole thing and see what can be done. The Memory Toy which is the same design in principle sounds great and runs on 9V.

But to say it is the particular chip that is the issue I think is incorrect and where a lot of the misinformation on them comes from.

[djaaz]

Hopefully! Kinda doubt it though, the power of mojo is strong with these chips and this build.

Difficult to write this without it sounding negative but ill say it anyway.
I think the problem people have justifying the v3205 on this build is that it doesnt sound as good.

With stuff like the Aquaboy I think it was less apparent, but then again im basing this is stuff Ive read only.

This is problably why lots of people are fishing for MN3005 for the memory man...rather than just to say or think its "cool to have the exact chips". If the v3205 actually sounded the same I doubt as many people would care or risk the cash,.

It sounded different because of distorted repeats though correct? Not tonally.

That is down to the design, it's optimised for 15V and the lower output of the 3005s.

I know you didn't get yours right so far but once I have all the parts i'm actually gunna breadboard the whole thing and see what can be done.

But to say it is the particular chip that is the issue I think is incorrect and where a lot of the misinformation on them comes from.

Again, there's a dance around two different things.

Does V2005 sounds as good as MN3005? That's still up for debate as we can read, let's call them "senior builder" still fishing for MN3005. Even you, Scruffie when you are interested in 3008 that were sold as 3005 that will probably be more expensive that brand new 3208.

And then, does the madbean dirtbag's delay sounds as good with V3205? And there, my opinion based on what i read here and not only from LaceSensor is that it is not so much up for debate.

Now i'm pretty sure that some geniuses, or just averaged skilled guy for that matter, are perfectly able to design something for the V3205 that will be perfectly suited for it.

Finally, as soon as these things are going out of the room & used in a band, does it still really matter?

[Scruffie]

Hopefully! Kinda doubt it though, the power of mojo is strong with these chips and this build.

Difficult to write this without it sounding negative but ill say it anyway.
I think the problem people have justifying the v3205 on this build is that it doesnt sound as good.

With stuff like the Aquaboy I think it was less apparent, but then again im basing this is stuff Ive read only.

This is problably why lots of people are fishing for MN3005 for the memory man...rather than just to say or think its "cool to have the exact chips". If the v3205 actually sounded the same I doubt as many people would care or risk the cash,.

It sounded different because of distorted repeats though correct? Not tonally.

That is down to the design, it's optimised for 15V and the lower output of the 3005s.

I know you didn't get yours right so far but once I have all the parts i'm actually gunna breadboard the whole thing and see what can be done.

But to say it is the particular chip that is the issue I think is incorrect and where a lot of the misinformation on them comes from.

Again, there's a dance around two different things.

Does V2005 sounds as good as MN3005? That's still up for debate as we can read, let's call them "senior builder" still fishing for MN3005. Even you, Scruffie when you are interested in 3008 that were sold as 3005 that will probably be more expensive that brand new 3208.

And then, does the madbean dirtbag's delay sounds as good with V3205? And there, my opinion based on what i read here and not only from LaceSensor is that it is not so much up for debate.

Now i'm pretty sure that some geniuses, or just averaged skilled guy for that matter, are perfectly able to design something for the V3205 that will be perfectly suited for it.

Finally, as soon as these things are going out of the room & used in a band, does it still really matter?

I never denied there being a difference between 3205s and 3005, there is, it's written up there ^ headroom, higher distortion and possibly slightly less noise.
And yup, I am interested in some fake 3008s, for repairs and even for a DMM because I intend to do a 3205 vs 3005 (well 8, i'm not holding out hope of 5s) when I breadboard the circuit so I need a benchmark to help optimise the circuit to get it as close to the original sound as possble. They'll also allow me to optimise and play with many other circuits so there will be no concerns of switching to a lower voltage chip and helping others (if they wish to) save money and hassle adding charge pumps and sourcing chips.

Pricewise a fake duo can be had for $15 at smallbear, 2 x 3208 is about $10 I recall? So not much in it.
I also want some 3008s because I occasionaly DO want higher headroom, which is a good reason to use the BBDs, but for most of us, a 3205/7/8 will have plenty of headroom especially with companding (on a chorus or flanger with only low pass filtering the use of a 3007 is a bit more forgiveable IF you use it at 15V) especially when many use these BBDs on 9V regardless.

At present, the 3205 version of the Dirt Bag may not sound as good as the 3005, but you said your self, you love your Memory Toy, which has a circuit Designed to run nicely on 9V where we're still using a circuit designed for 15V. With some tweaking, i'm confident it can sound exactly the same as a 3005 DMM but just perhaps clip a bit easier. So it is not the chip it self, it is what is surrounding it, which in any chorus, flanger, delay is always going to be the important part, the BBD plays a very small part in the game in the overall look.

I have personally switched between 3207s on choruses and flangers that run on 9V though and I can say, the chip did not change the sound to any dramatic extent or even undramatic, they both sounded great and both sounded like eachother.

I think it does matter, not only because people are wasting a load of money on fake chips which looses them cash and encourages the market for more fakes but it reduces the amount of 3005s which are becoming increasingly rare for repairs of existing pedals. We also don't know how these effects are being used, some people might be bedroom warriors who get the chip for the 'sound' where they never use the chip to its full extent and a 3205, had it been given the proper chance, would have sufficed and left another 3005 out there for someone in need of it, there's just not enough left to go around and we don't know how they're used, some people might just hold on to them in case 'I ever fancy building another delay' while someone with a broken 2 x 3005 Analog rack delay they love goes without.

And this also continues to spread the fallicy that there is something instrinctly wrong with a 3205/7/8 BBD, they're all great and will make a great analog chorus/delay or flanger. It's just the circuit they are put to use in that is the issue.

I said at the start of this thread though 'Regardless of the fact I doubt it'll put people off.'

[lloyd17]

I waited for a number of build reports before settling on the MN route as the V3205 chips noise issue didn't seem to be fully resolved for everyone. Sure I got hosed on the chips but with Paypal/Ebay all I have lost really is time and return shipping. I'll just go the 4x 3008 route since they can be had from reputable suppliers.

Were I certain the noise issues had been ironed out of the 3205 version I'd never have entertained the thought of an MN build.

[Scruffie]

I waited for a number of build reports before settling on the MN route as the V3205 chips noise issue didn't seem to be fully resolved for everyone. Sure I got hosed on the chips but with Paypal/Ebay all I have lost really is time and return shipping. I'll just go the 4x 3008 route since they can be had from reputable suppliers.

Were I certain the noise issues had been ironed out of the 3205 version I'd never have entertained the thought of an MN build.

I'll accept that, pretty reasonable explanation for the moment (and 4 x 3008 is going to be a lot easier to source!). Hopefully once i've played on the breadboard I can come up with a 3205 design solution that I find final if people are not happy with beans finalized mods of which I couldn't comment as I haven't tried them.

There is one thing that might help things... if someone tries running the 3205s off 9V but the rest of the circuit off 15V, see if that clears up the distortion issues.

[gtr2]

I did that with a double delay aqua boy w 3205's it didn't help in that case.

I'm interested in your results of the breadboard Scruffie.

All the DIY delays I've built are unfortunately optimized for 3005's so the 3205's are always kind of a compromise. 

But...all the commercial delays I've played with the 3205's had a darker repeat.  Not dirt, just darker than any of the MN3005 delay's I've played.  It seems that to overcome the lack of headroom they are limiting the highs that hit the bbd...  My V3205 aqua boy never distorted with the tone knob rolled back and it sounded like the Malekko Ekko 616.  Which I found exceptionally dark without the buffer on.

Josh

[Scruffie]

I did that with a double delay aqua boy w 3205's it didn't help in that case.

I'm interested in your results of the breadboard Scruffie.

All the DIY delays I've built are unfortunately optimized for 3005's so the 3205's are always kind of a compromise. 

But...all the commercial delays I've played with the 3205's had a darker repeat.  Not dirt, just darker than any of the MN3005 delay's I've played.  It seems that to overcome the lack of headroom they are limiting the highs that hit the bbd...  My V3205 aqua boy never distorted with the tone knob rolled back and it sounded like the Malekko Ekko 616.  Which I found exceptionally dark without the buffer on.

Josh

Ah that's a shame, was just an idea any way.

I'm pretty sure I recall the Ekko 616 IS a 3205 DM-2, or at least an offshoot of the design so that's not too suprising. I've read from reviews several times that the Carbon Copy sounds darker than the EHX Memory Toy so it may just be the commercial effects you have used have had higher levels of low pass filtering.

All BBD effects cut highs, you have to, although there may be something in what you say, perhaps while a single BBD effect like the DM-2 can use a 3205 happily with no changes, on longer delays (Your dual delay, carbon copy, memory toy etc.) it begins to suffer more than a higher headroom chip so it gets neutered to prevent the distortion (which come to think of it, maybe someone with a 3205 Dirt Bag should change there clock cap to 120pF, that would mean less available delay but increased fidelity, that could be an interesting path to go down) although I think with good design, this could be avoided, but we're not talking about designing ourselves for now any way. But i'll reiterate and you almost show here that it is not the BBD it self that is the source of the sound, it is the surrounding circuitry.

There are so many variables too, the 3205 has a bunch of different specs depending on voltage and some become worse as others become better so it may be that the filtering in the DMM is more appropriate for X set up while the DM-2 is more appropriate for Y.

But I think a great delay can be pulled out with these 3205s and the stock DMM with the appropriate changes, i'm gunna aim to not add any parts when I breadboard it and do my best to come up with a solution.

Going back to the DMM with less available delay time, i'm now wondering if with a few appropriate changes in the circuit for 9V operation, using a 4049 buffer on the clock and 4 x 3205s for 550mS would be a worthwhile experiment... or am I just tired and not thinking properly.