So as most of you probably do, I offered to build some one a custom pedal. It was an Acapulco Gold and a Foxx Tone Machine in the same enclosure. It had a master bypass switch with two individual by pass switches for the fx. Now this guy is a real pain in the A$$. He was messaging me multiple times a day, asking for this and that, or if this or that was doable. Finally I finished the pedal tested it and sent it over to him.
Once he got the pedal he tried it out and said it didn't work...ugg! Ok, I sent him a return label and got the pedal back...works just fine. I then replaced a bunch of parts (shotgun attempt really) and tested the pedal for 5 days, on 3 different amps, with and without other pedals in the mix. Everything was good...or so I thought. Sent him the pedal, double boxed and TONS of packing material, and again. He said it didn't work. I am now sending him a single AG and fuzz in separate enclosures. Plus another return label for the original pedal I built him.
This guy has been a thorn in my side since the initial contact. I have since decided to no longer offer custom builds (unless it's a friend of mine or a mutual contact) because of this guy. I have had difficult customers, and everything that comes along with them. I work customer support for fishman...But "THIS GUY" has burnt me out! Anyways sorry and thanks for listening to my rant. Just needed to vent.
Anyone else run into this? What did you guys do?
-Mike-
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mike,
You are too nice. As soon as I get the pedal back and discovered it was functioning as designed, I would have given his money back minus shipping, told him I'm not Interested in doing business with him and sell the pedal on Reverb or something. There is a small fraction of society that is not capable of fair and reasonable transactions. As soon as you discover one, cut the cord immediately. I don't want their money, I don't want their emails and I don't want to do any business with them.
You are a seasoned pedal builder. You know what you're doing. You deserved better. This is a hard lesson, but one I think will help you in many future scenarios. And don't let the few weeds ruin your love of gardening. Just yank them out and move on.
Steve.
All of THIS^^^^so much. I quit doing custom work because of "him" too. 20 emails a day (or night!) with changeups, wishlists, and gear run-downs. I ghosted a custom seeker recently that insisted I "whip him up" an analog echo with "10 or so BBD" for 2+ seconds of delay, on his budget of $100.
I remember ending my pedal building for others on the most sour of notes for exactly this sort of reason. Sold them a cardinal v1 I built for myself that I was parting with to build the v2. Call the next day that the pedal didn't work. I want my money back, profanity laced tirade, etc.
In the end they threatened to ruin my reputation to anyone who'd listen if I didn't immediately refund them and I encouraged them to do so because I was quitting as of that phone call. I happened to be at the grocery store shopping for my family at the time this call came in, the whole thing just hit me wrong, and I don't think I even bothered to offer to troubleshoot or fix it.
Eventually they got around to someone who knew me and also worked on pedals. They got the pedal from them and lo and behold it worked just fine ... if you plug in the power. They assumed a battery was included (I don't usually include battery connection on things I build for me) and didn't even crack it open to check because they just wanted to return it.
I always felt like a jerk afterwards for not making it right but in that moment that wasn't even on the menu of possibilities.
Mike,
Did you ask the guy step-by-step how he was using the pedal? Honestly, I had a guy once notify me that one of my builds wasn't working (I test EVERYTHING thoroughly before shipment) and the guy was plugging his guitar cable into the OUT jack. Had another guy return a pedal 2 times only to find out that he was using a center POS adapter.
Bottom line... you'd be surprised at what people can do.
That's tough man, sorry to hear it. I've only ever built for friends and family for fear of just this type of thing. I don't know that I'd think it's worth it.
I'm guessing Government Lacky nailed the problem here. Dude probably couldn't figure out how to plug it in or something.
Hope he doesn't give you a hard time about the other two you send him.
Quote from: Matmosphere on October 01, 2020, 08:08:59 PM
I've only ever built for friends and family for fear of just this type of thing. I don't know that I'd think it's worth it.
Same.
All of this is why I applaud Bean, Scruffie, JMK, and all the vendors on here for selling boards.
The idea of providing support gives me the shivers. Especially given that old quote...
"Engineering is a race between engineers to build a fool-proof product, and the Universe to build bigger fools. So far, the Universe is winning."
Hey guys, I'm both glad and sad to hear it's not just me. I went through everything I could with this guy. He is the worst! He is really nice which is why I'm trying to work with him but I am loosing my mind here. I should have just cut it off the first time I got it back but hindsight is 20/20 right. I will get the other back and list it on reverb or something only because I want this thing out of my sight and house. I actually told him that he was the reason I decided to stop custom builds. Not my best moment but I was fed up at the time...and still am. Thank for the input guys. It helps to hear how others handle this kind of stuff.
I told this guy in the 10 years of me building and modding pedals I have never had one that was DOA or didn't work properly. It's so irritating.
-Mike-
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: TGP39 on October 01, 2020, 07:26:18 PM
...And don't let the few weeds ruin your love of gardening. Just yank them out and move on.
Steve.
+1 to Steve. Some people are just jerks. Everything I do now is custom, and I occasionally run into a difficult customer. Assuming the pedal is working as designed, I give them one free mod/adjustment, and if they're still not happy I either charge them for the changes or they get a refund less shipping and I politely end the relationship. It's perfectly legitimate to fire customers. But that's rare, and I really enjoy working with the 99.9% of great customers who are excited about custom work, it more than makes up for the occasional jerk. Mike
Quote from: TGP39 on October 01, 2020, 07:26:18 PM
Mike,
You are too nice. As soon as I get the pedal back and discovered it was functioning as designed, I would have given his money back minus shipping, told him I'm not Interested in doing business with him and sell the pedal on Reverb or something. There is a small fraction of society that is not capable of fair and reasonable transactions. As soon as you discover one, cut the cord immediately. I don't want their money, I don't want their emails and I don't want to do any business with them.
You are a seasoned pedal builder. You know what you're doing. You deserved better. This is a hard lesson, but one I think will help you in many future scenarios. And don't let the few weeds ruin your love of gardening. Just yank them out and move on.
Steve.
Yes this and of course it's all hindsight now. Agree with all the comments and don't let it ruin your fun and passion. On your terms.
You are more than considerate anyway.
QuoteI had a guy once notify me that one of my builds wasn't working (I test EVERYTHING thoroughly before shipment) and the guy was plugging his guitar cable into the OUT jack
This exact thing happened to me. I sold my "Beastmode" and "Megatron TMK2601" builds to a fellow who messaged me to say that Beastmode would pass signal when bypassed but didn't work when engaged. Turns out he'd plugged the amp into the input on the pedal. I'd tested it before sending it, so I knew it wasn't the pedal.
I've done a few consignment builds and I hate doing them, mostly because I won't send anything out that has a flaw that I would accept for a personal build. So, I decided to charge through the nose for those builds to compensate me for the stress involved.
What I enjoy doing far more, is doing a random gift build for a friend or a child of a friend who might have started playing and is showing some dedication or aptitude. I'll find out what they're into from their parents and build accordingly. "Tiger Drive", "Darth Punk", "Genuine Fake", and a few others have been designed and gifted in this way.
Quote from: Willybomb on October 02, 2020, 01:00:22 PM
QuoteI had a guy once notify me that one of my builds wasn't working (I test EVERYTHING thoroughly before shipment) and the guy was plugging his guitar cable into the OUT jack
This exact thing happened to me. I sold my "Beastmode" and "Megatron TMK2601" builds to a fellow who messaged me to say that Beastmode would pass signal when bypassed but didn't work when engaged. Turns out he'd plugged the amp into the input on the pedal. I'd tested it before sending it, so I knew it wasn't the pedal.
I've done a few consignment builds and I hate doing them, mostly because I won't send anything out that has a flaw that I would accept for a personal build. So, I decided to charge through the nose for those builds to compensate me for the stress involved.
What I enjoy doing far more, is doing a random gift build for a friend or a child of a friend who might have started playing and is showing some dedication or aptitude. I'll find out what they're into from their parents and build accordingly. "Tiger Drive", "Darth Punk", "Genuine Fake", and a few others have been designed and gifted in this way.
Yeah, this —^^^^^— I love giving people pedals as gifts. On a few occasions I've been with friends when I was testing a new pedal and they liked it so much that I just gave it to them.
My brother (a DC comics but) has a whole board of comic book character pedals that I've made him over the past couple of years.
I have certainly been a pain in the ass, but after being on the other side of things learned to dial that back and be normal.
But yeah, I also stopped doing pedal repairs after one of "those guys." I fixed an old big box muff that just had a loose wire that had become desoldered. Those pedals suck and the wire eventually came off again a few months later. He wanted a refund, yadda yadda. And while it's not the biggest deal, there was something about dealing with him that just turned me off of building/repairing for customers. It just clicked. I like to do this kind of thing for fun and I'm not really making much off of it and I have weird people coming into my house... just no.
Quote from: flanagan0718 on October 01, 2020, 08:19:15 PM
Hey guys, I'm both glad and sad to hear it's not just me. I went through everything I could with this guy. He is the worst! He is really nice which is why I'm trying to work with him but I am loosing my mind here. I should have just cut it off the first time I got it back but hindsight is 20/20 right. I will get the other back and list it on reverb or something only because I want this thing out of my sight and house. I actually told him that he was the reason I decided to stop custom builds. Not my best moment but I was fed up at the time...and still am. Thank for the input guys. It helps to hear how others handle this kind of stuff.
I told this guy in the 10 years of me building and modding pedals I have never had one that was DOA or didn't work properly. It's so irritating.
-Mike-
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree with what others have said... you're being really nice about this, but just cut your losses on it. Refund him and move on. You've done what you could.
Quote from: Willybomb on October 02, 2020, 01:00:22 PM
QuoteI had a guy once notify me that one of my builds wasn't working (I test EVERYTHING thoroughly before shipment) and the guy was plugging his guitar cable into the OUT jack
This exact thing happened to me. I sold my "Beastmode" and "Megatron TMK2601" builds to a fellow who messaged me to say that Beastmode would pass signal when bypassed but didn't work when engaged. Turns out he'd plugged the amp into the input on the pedal. I'd tested it before sending it, so I knew it wasn't the pedal.
I've done a few consignment builds and I hate doing them, mostly because I won't send anything out that has a flaw that I would accept for a personal build. So, I decided to charge through the nose for those builds to compensate me for the stress involved.
What I enjoy doing far more, is doing a random gift build for a friend or a child of a friend who might have started playing and is showing some dedication or aptitude. I'll find out what they're into from their parents and build accordingly. "Tiger Drive", "Darth Punk", "Genuine Fake", and a few others have been designed and gifted in this way.
I once changed 700.00 for a multi build that I didn't want to do, knowing he would pay it. Turns out he did. That sucked a bunch in all honesty, but it did fund other builds.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have had a client that has done nearly the same thing. I kept taking it back after he told me it didn't work. After the 3rd time I 'repaired' it for him, he was asking for a refund. At this point I've lost money on the shipping. You guys know that the margin on most custom jobs is small anyway, but between my time and the actual funds out the door, I'm down $100 by that moment, and I asked him to consider that it's a problem on his end, and not on mine. I wasn't willing to take it back, and each time had sent it to me it had worked fine for me. I tried to no avail to get the symptoms to show themselves, but nothing.
Man that was frustrating. Among the last custom pedals I ever did.
Jacob
Mike, having purchased a fair number of boards from you and having build problems at my end a few times I can honestly say I can't imagine dealing with a more helpful and patient guy and the product has been superb.
Ok I may have used your name in vain a few times as I tried cramming all that shit in a tiny 1590A box but damned if they haven't all worked :-)
Quote from: gordo on October 03, 2020, 01:58:11 AM
Ok I may have used your name in vain a few times as I tried cramming all that shit in a tiny 1590A box but damned if they haven't all worked :-)
Bwahahahaha
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: jimilee on October 03, 2020, 02:51:36 AM
Quote from: gordo on October 03, 2020, 01:58:11 AM
Ok I may have used your name in vain a few times as I tried cramming all that shit in a tiny 1590A box but damned if they haven't all worked :-)
Bwahahahaha
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hahahahaha!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It is unfortunate there are many people who's sole goal in life is to make life miserable for other people. These are the ones who even if they opened up your pedal and found you had put a wad of $100 bills in there as a bonus, they would complain that the rubber band was the wrong color.
Wow, I've been super lucky.
I've only had a couple pedals come back for repairs ever, and everyone I've ever dealt with has been amazingly nice about meeting me halfway on clarifying what can and can't be done with the pedals. I have a super generous warranty policy but no one's ever taken advantage of me.
Quote from: lars on October 03, 2020, 05:32:57 AM
It is unfortunate there are many people who's sole goal in life is to make life miserable for other people. These are the ones who even if they opened up your pedal and found you had put a wad of $100 bills in there as a bonus, they would complain that the rubber band was the wrong color.
You're giving people too much credit. A wise man told me once to never assume maliciousness when ordinary stupidity more than covers the situation... Lol!
There are a lot of people out there that don't really know what they want. Or they have this idea in their mind about something that is completely in fantasy land.
I try to cover all my bases before the transaction is done so there are no surprises afterwards. I will let them play through it to make sure that they want it, I can't stand people that have buyer's remorse after the deal is done. Fickle children... Lol!
This is exactly why I stopped building one-off stuff for strangers years ago. Everybody is an unreasonable asshole when it comes to custom work.
On the other hand, these days it would be pretty easy to troubleshoot an "it doesn't work" bullshit scenario via Facetime, Zoom, Google Meet, etc. I would them prove it doesn't work -- LIVE -- before I would entertain a return.
Quote from: culturejam on October 06, 2020, 05:12:57 PM
This is exactly why I stopped building one-off stuff for strangers years ago. Everybody is an unreasonable asshole when it comes to custom work.
On the other hand, these days it would be pretty easy to troubleshoot an "it doesn't work" bullshit scenario via Facetime, Zoom, Google Meet, etc. I would them prove it doesn't work -- LIVE -- before I would entertain a return.
Yes it would. I wish I had thought of that!
I do plan on building short runs (5 or 10 of a pedal at a time) for a bit to see if anything flourishes from it. But the custom one off stuff, aside from close friends, it not for me anymore. "This guy" has helped me over the fence on that decision.
He's a nice guy (seemingly) but I just don't have the time or patience anymore for this kind of crap. I love the hobby and refuse to let anyone ruin it for me.
-Mike-
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think the main problem with the custom, eh, customers is that they have no idea what is or isn't possible or any degree of concept of the difficulty/complexity of a particular desired feature.
"Hey, I know you are almost done building version 4 of the 7-in-1 trem-o-stortion I commissioned, but you could just throw a simple 800ms analog delay in there as well? I will pay an extra $20 to cover the cost." :o
Quote from: culturejam on October 06, 2020, 06:25:18 PM
I think the main problem with the custom, eh, customers is that they have no idea what is or isn't possible or any degree of concept of the difficulty/complexity of a particular desired feature.
"Hey, I know you are almost done building version 4 of the 7-in-1 trem-o-stortion I commissioned, but you could just throw a simple 800ms analog delay in there as well? I will pay an extra $20 to cover the cost." :o
Yeah, I think anybody that is seriously considering doing this should talk to some freelance graphic designers or something like that. Clear expectations are set before work begins and if there are any changes while the project is happening then the client will pay extra.
The real issue is that people can often get a custom pedal for about the same or less than they could buy a production product. I can't think of any other industry where a custom made product is cheaper than buying something off the shelf.
Look at guys who make custom guitars, they sell for two or three times what an American made Fender sells for.
I completely understand the frustrations expressed here, and I've had a few of those unpleasant customer encounters myself. For context, 100% of my pedal builds are custom, and while I make more than I spend, I don't depend on it for a living. I do think it's possible to enjoy doing custom work, but it takes setting clear expectations and boundaries in advance, and educating (potential) customers starting with their first encounter with us.
They only know about us what we tell them, or more often what we fail to tell them. Do I have a written policy for my ordering process? Change requests? Drop-dead dates? Cancellations? Delivery dates? Returns? Refunds? Warranties? Mods? Out-of-warranty repairs? If not, it's hard to fault a customer for not sticking to them. I fire maybe one customer every year or two, and when I do I can usually trace the problem to some failure of communication or consistency on my part. The majority of buyers are anywhere from ok to great in their interactions, and much of my work is repeat business.
My point is that if you really want to do custom work, you CAN do it and enjoy it IF you can articulate your policies and stick to them. When that doesn't work, and sometimes it doesn't, that's when you fire that customer and move on. If you had a bad employee, would you close the business or would you fire them and move on? Life's too short to spend time with knuckleheads. Thanks for reading! MikeA
This was my basic blurb to people who came looking for a custom build. This was for the Bimmy build you'd find in the Build Reports forum.
QuoteSo, with a custom build, you get lifetime support, postage to you included in the price, graphics of your choice (within reason, it has to work with the control layout, but we discuss that in the process), we can chuck your signature on it as a "signature edition", but I have a few caveats:
It gets done when I get done - I have a job (this stuff is for fun), a partner and a kid, plus parts are hard to get from OS currently.
Half up front before work starts, the rest before delivery.
So, I'm going to quote $220. It's a bit of work in this case.
Update: got the pedal back and everything works fine! I am beyond angry now. This guy is officially fired! I am refunding his money, less the 2 unnecessary shipping costs and $50 for my pain and suffering.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: flanagan0718 on October 08, 2020, 02:50:42 PM
Update: got the pedal back and everything works fine! I am beyond angry now. This guy is officially fired! I am refunding his money, less the 2 unnecessary shipping costs and $50 for my pain and suffering.
Brutal. Been there. Good for you for pulling the plug.
Jacob
A friend of mine who sells repaired vintage amps regularly always makes a video of him playing and demonstrating that everything works perfectly. Maybe for the true specialists one could include where to put which cable...
Quote from: flanagan0718 on October 08, 2020, 02:50:42 PM
Update: got the pedal back and everything works fine! I am beyond angry now. This guy is officially fired! I am refunding his money, less the 2 unnecessary shipping costs and $50 for my pain and suffering.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I said good day, sir!
Quote from: flanagan0718 on October 08, 2020, 02:50:42 PM
Update: got the pedal back and everything works fine! I am beyond angry now. This guy is officially fired! I am refunding his money, less the 2 unnecessary shipping costs and $50 for my pain and suffering.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
....was this fellow aware that pedals require a power supply? I used to do IT work occasionally, and sometimes you really do need to start at the bottom of the barrel with the questions to ask.
Quote from: somnif on October 08, 2020, 09:59:06 PM
Quote from: flanagan0718 on October 08, 2020, 02:50:42 PM
Update: got the pedal back and everything works fine! I am beyond angry now. This guy is officially fired! I am refunding his money, less the 2 unnecessary shipping costs and $50 for my pain and suffering.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
....was this fellow aware that pedals require a power supply? I used to do IT work occasionally, and sometimes you really do need to start at the bottom of the barrel with the questions to ask.
"Hello, Have you tried turning it off and on again?"
Jacob
I am fond of using that George Carlin quote, know how stupid the average person is, and realize that half are even more stupid then that?
But on the other hand our brains are constructed in such a way that they don't see reality as it is, they construct one in our brains from our sensory input. When you look at something, you don't see reality, you see an interpretive movie that plays inside your brain. This is why there is no such thing as common sense, or why it feels so damn odd that nobody else can see what seems clear as crystal to you. Everyone's brain movie is different and you are probably just as stupid to them as they are to you. And in a way its so amazing that it actually works in such a way that most of the time most of us can agree on anything.
QuoteA friend of mine who sells repaired vintage amps regularly always makes a video of him playing and demonstrating that everything works perfectly. Maybe for the true specialists one could include where to put which cable...
I did that with all the commission builds I did, it was just part of keeping them updated. I would always get a deposit up front, and send a demo vid when the pedal was completed and the balance was due.
Not to bump a necro thread here, but I have that guy right now. This is a guy I have dealt with before, and I know he is nothing but trouble. But a sale is a sale, and trying to get my name out there, I don't want to turn work down. I had a big long tirade about this guy written, but decided to just delete it. But yeah, I have that guy now, and I am kicking myself for taking more work from him...
People like that really make you think about why you are doing this. Most of the experiences have been good, but its that one person that makes you think "whats the point?" I know that the lingering thought of "whats the point" has been hanging around in my head for a while. Yeah I keep pumping things out, but for what? So I have a ton of pedals sitting around, but they are not doing any good in my music room. I try to get a name out there, but I feel like its just landing on deaf ears. I know I make some good and unique products, if people just gave it a chance, I want them to know the same thing. I know that my marketing is shit (which as an engineer, marketing is a complete 180 to everything that I am), and I plan on 2021 being the year of really pushing that part of it. But maybe I keep lying to myself working on new designs thinking that "this next one, this will be what people like", but I know that it is destined to just be another pedal on my shelf that ultimately someday will be destined to the trash or to goodwill or something. I'm not in this to make a lot of money or to be the next JHS, Walrus, Earthquaker, Function F(X), etc., I just want to make something that will make people happy. But if doing this is not making the person making them happy, then ultimately whats the point?
Sorry about the rant, just dealing with one of those people that really set you off makes you question a lot of things...
Quote from: dan.schumaker on December 18, 2020, 03:52:09 PM
People like that really make you think about why you are doing this. Most of the experiences have been good, but its that one person that makes you think "whats the point?" I know that the lingering thought of "whats the point" has been hanging around in my head for a while. Yeah I keep pumping things out, but for what? So I have a ton of pedals sitting around, but they are not doing any good in my music room. I try to get a name out there, but I feel like its just landing on deaf ears. I know I make some good and unique products, if people just gave it a chance, I want them to know the same thing. I know that my marketing is shit (which as an engineer, marketing is a complete 180 to everything that I am), and I plan on 2021 being the year of really pushing that part of it. But maybe I keep lying to myself working on new designs thinking that "this next one, this will be what people like", but I know that it is destined to just be another pedal on my shelf that ultimately someday will be destined to the trash or to goodwill or something. I'm not in this to make a lot of money or to be the next JHS, Walrus, Earthquaker, Function F(X), etc., I just want to make something that will make people happy. But if doing this is not making the person making them happy, then ultimately whats the point?
Please do not let an asshole stop you from doing anything or having you questioning why. I struggle with this daily and not just with pedals or guitars but pretty much everything. I was uncertain at first if it was just a mid life (36) crisis or a 2020 thing or what but I too have been feeling the same way.
But then I fire up an amp I built and play a guitar I made through a Tone Bender I built and painted and then all of life's nagging little stresses go away. Try to keep your head up and if there is anything I can do to help let me know. Your builds and boards are killer and more people should know about them.
Dan,
Your design and building skills are through the roof. Make it a challenge to better yourself in just two areas: Marketing (you touched upon this) and aesthetics.
I have read pedal descriptions that are so inventive it had me foaming at the mouth. This distortion pedal was ungodly because it had a knob on it that said Krank! I knew it was a gain knob, but I didn't care. At that moment Krank was brilliant! Read as many pedal descriptions as you can. Capture the buzzwords flying around. Look into Marketing techniques that quickly capture an audience. Some companies have a great product, but then describe it to sound about as interesting as a wet loaf of bread.
It pains me to say this, but aesthetics will make a sale faster than any demo could ever attempt. If it looks awesome, it is awesome. The seasoned musician will usually not fall for this trick, but that is a tiny fraction of your potential market. Experiment with different finishing techniques, different knobs, different layouts ( I once had to have this pedal where the knobs made the shape of a pentagram and had a led at each point....stupid? Yes, but damn was it effective), different color schemes, even different cool names for a gain knob. I love building and perfecting the inside of a pedal, but those buyers aren't looking inside. I've learned to love perfecting the outside of my pedals as well. It truly is an art that takes practice, but you will get tons of feedback on how awesome your pedal looks.
I want to stress that these two areas are just my opinion of what sells nowadays. Like I said before, you are a master of design and building techniques. I know you will quickly master other techniques as well. Keep building. I will always appreciate what you do because I know how skillful you have to be to pull it off. Best of luck in 2021.
-Steve