3pdt stomps - I'm done! alternatives - opto or relay bypass?

[pickdropper]

I think there are two issues at play here:

1). Reliability.  I think the main reason the OP wants to ditch 3PDTs is because they have a higher failure rate.  Latching DPDT latched switches may still click but the better ones tend to be more reliable.  If you want true bypass with an LED you need a bit more than just the switch however,  so optical is an option for that.

2). The other issue is clicking and popping.  Some folks don't like the click of the switch and a momentary will probably make them happier.  But at live volume settings, a switch click isn't usually very audible.  Switch popping is an entirely different issue.  This goes through the signal chain and can be heard through the amp.  Louder amp = louder pop.  And this can happen with any switching scheme, including relay.


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[davent]

PPP is mentioned as a good source for Alpha 3pdt's, who is/are the go to suppliers for Alpha 2pdt's, i've bought from Small Bear, any others?

dave

[alanp]

Devil's advocate, but my mate Jodie didn't like the Wicked Switch setup in my MN3008 Dirtbag, chiefly because of the soft touch switch (as opposed to feeling a hard actuation through the foot.)

[claytushaywood]

So people like using switching schemes with dpdt's just because they are more reliable?   Regarding popping... that's my main issue.  I think alpha's 3pdt is pretty reliable for me... I'd always like more reliable.

Besides relay switching, what methods would have the least noise?

[the3secondrule]

I think there are two issues at play here:

1). Reliability.  I think the main reason the OP wants to ditch 3PDTs is because they have a higher failure rate.  Latching DPDT latched switches may still click but the better ones tend to be more reliable.  If you want true bypass with an LED you need a bit more than just the switch however,  so optical is an option for that.

2). The other issue is clicking and popping.  Some folks don't like the click of the switch and a momentary will probably make them happier.  But at live volume settings, a switch click isn't usually very audible.  Switch popping is an entirely different issue.  This goes through the signal chain and can be heard through the amp.  Louder amp = louder pop.  And this can happen with any switching scheme, including relay.


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Bingo. Reliability is it for me - I generally speaking don't usually have issues with switch pop, at least not enough to bother me. I've used Thomas H's relay bypass before, and really like the action of the soft touch momentaries. I need to look into options that don't need microcontrollers, as I'd really like to design my own boards (if it will in fact work out cheaper)

Long story short, I think I'll order a bunch of different relay/opto switch options, figure out which I prefer, and work out my own implementation.

Regarding the alpha dpdt's, can any one comment on the quality of the equivalent from Tayda or BLMS?
(Although I think in light of recent failures, my motto will be "accept no substitutes" )
I think I will stick to the real deal, unless there is compelling arguments for the cheapies (not just price)

/rant

[Tkrain42]

The ones I've ordered from Tayda are the generic blue ones... Of the 7, I've used so far, one shattered internally after about 20 clicks, and 4 of them send pops down the audio chain (but they didn't for the first 100 clicks or so)...  The other 3 are holding up (for now)... but any popping is unacceptable when you're playing in a worship band, playing a nice slow song, about to switch to that killer slow lead and BOOM (Boom boom bm bm, thanks to the echo). 
I just spent the last day breadboarding an opto based solution with 3 NSL32s I have in my stock and an arduino to switch them...  At least on the breadboard, it works like a charm, tomorrow it's putting them into a PCB...   
Any suggestions on the best optos to use for this without breaking the bank?

[alanp]

I dunno, it's a fun little game... you're sitting crosslegged next to the pedalboard listening to the sermon... can you time your CLICKs to the roars of the preacher, as opposed to the nadir (CLICK-next-to-quiet-whisper)

[juansolo]

In their favour, churches, most awesome natural room reverb ever.

[Cortexturizer]

Relay switching is the best for me. What sets it apart for me is the ability to use any type of funky switch available which pushes the envelope aesthetically for us builders as well - I can make pedals look a certain way. The main gripe for me with the 3PDT switch is not even the reliability (and the do fail miserably at that) but the click noise and the overall lumberjack-ish feel. I'm sure a lot of folks playing a balad on stage with an airy atmosphere see it as an absolute buzzkill when they stomp on a 3pdt and the whole stage goes BOOM. That's just off-putting so much.

Another advantage of relay switching for us builders is the ability to cram more stuff in a smaller box because a cool funky button-like switch can be so small in size it's ridiculous. Dunno, they just work for me and have a super pro feel. A friend just bought a rockbox boiling point (in spite of me telling him that it's just a TS with additional options ) and the 3pdt died in a week. I said to him, cool, let's upgrade that shit to a relay switching thing, he said no, no way, I wan't it to be exactly like it was. Suit yourself dude. Suit yourself.

[mmlee]

PPP is mentioned as a good source for Alpha 3pdt's, who is/are the go to suppliers for Alpha 2pdt's, i've bought from Small Bear, any others?

dave

In the UK I've found Rapid to be the cheapest for Alpha DPDT's and RS for H11F1's, neither of which are my normal suppliers though.

If I'm wrong then chime in.

[mmlee]

Forgot to say I actually prefer the little click of the alpha dpdt over the non-click momentarys. I guess its the slight tactile feedback. Also, so far I've had no pops with optical.

[juansolo]

PPP is mentioned as a good source for Alpha 3pdt's, who is/are the go to suppliers for Alpha 2pdt's, i've bought from Small Bear, any others?

dave

In the UK I've found Rapid to be the cheapest for Alpha DPDT's and RS for H11F1's, neither of which are my normal suppliers though.

If I'm wrong then chime in.

Spot on for both. I get H11F1V from RS as a 'production pack'. It involves buying bulk (think I got 75 last time), but makes them very reasonable.

[davent]

I'm stuck here in Canada, any secret sources of the Alpha 2pdt out there Canada friendly, and i'm only buying ten or so at a time, don't build a lot.
dave

[Tkrain42]

I just spent some time talking with an engineer who specializes in hi-fi audio devices (He mainly designs speaker/amplifier systems).  I was asking him to recommend a good optocoupler for the task, and he replied "none of them".  He said my NLS32 switch probably did sound fine to me, but when you have 4 or 5 pedals in the chain, that high resistance will suck the tone out, and I'll need boosters galore to make up for it, i.e distortion... most of the optocouplers out there aren't designed for audio, and introduce... distortion...   He pointed me to a DG413 digital switch http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Intersil/DG413DJZ/?qs=%2fha2pyFadujfDDcW%252bvCOvHF8bn6BtXIPejAzdL9RvAk%3d... 4 switches in a PDip16 package, 2 switches NO, two switches NC..  And they're pretty reasonable (about $2.50 at mouser, or $2.02 if you buy a tube, compared to $9.00 for 3 NSL32).   Since the chip has two NO and two NC, one could design a circuit with a SPST latching switch and still include a status LED or run an SPST momentary into a bistable flip flop (and yes, still have the LED). 
Of course, the engineer won't draft the schematic for me, but he assured me that if I could design the NSL32 soft switch setup, this would be a cakewalk. 
So off to order chips and load up DipTrace.

[jubal81]

I just spent some time talking with an engineer who specializes in hi-fi audio devices (He mainly designs speaker/amplifier systems).  I was asking him to recommend a good optocoupler for the task, and he replied "none of them".  He said my NLS32 switch probably did sound fine to me, but when you have 4 or 5 pedals in the chain, that high resistance will suck the tone out, and I'll need boosters galore to make up for it, i.e distortion... most of the optocouplers out there aren't designed for audio, and introduce... distortion...   He pointed me to a DG413 digital switch http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Intersil/DG413DJZ/?qs=%2fha2pyFadujfDDcW%252bvCOvHF8bn6BtXIPejAzdL9RvAk%3d... 4 switches in a PDip16 package, 2 switches NO, two switches NC..  And they're pretty reasonable (about $2.50 at mouser, or $2.02 if you buy a tube, compared to $9.00 for 3 NSL32).   Since the chip has two NO and two NC, one could design a circuit with a SPST latching switch and still include a status LED or run an SPST momentary into a bistable flip flop (and yes, still have the LED). 
Of course, the engineer won't draft the schematic for me, but he assured me that if I could design the NSL32 soft switch setup, this would be a cakewalk. 
So off to order chips and load up DipTrace.

They optical system we've been discussing uses a mosfet-based coupler. The series resistance is about 30 Ohms and only in the signal path when the effect is on.