The reason why we still call it "125B"

[jessenator]

So a friend and I were commiserating over a project they'll have to tweak, sand down to make it fit into an enclosure (IMO this was because of too-tight tolerances on the part of the designer of his particular board, but that's another topic). Forgive me, I know this isn't like the cure for cancer or anything, but it's got my brain in a frenzy and I have to translate it out of my brain space and into text.

So back to the problem with this board not fitting in the enclosure: got me thinking about what the true size of the enclosure is vs what it's supposed to be: manufacturing tolerances vary from maker to maker, and further differ based on what mold they copied, or CAD they replicated and even how proficient the cloning process/person was/is.

The case in point: the 125B

>>>tl;dr at the bottom<<<

Was it Mammoth who made this what it is? why it's still with us? I can be pretty pedantic about naming things, so I've been on one with this since getting back into the DIY world.

In the earliest wayback machine capture of the enclosure's product page, "4S125B" is what's written out. https://web.archive.org/web/20101223105031/http://www.mammothelectronics.com:80/4S125B-p/500-1002.htm   In fact, even when I first started getting into this way back then, I have a file of several old enclosure designs (for said friend, incidentally) with a filename "4S125B enclosure designs" —even back then I was a stubborn pedant, even if I didn't notice every detail about its origin.

I originally thought that 125B/4S125B was some much older designation by Hammond or even just series of enclosures, but nope. What really gets me is that one the Description tab on that page above, it states     

4S125B Die Cast Aluminum Enclosure (Similar to Hammond 1590N1)

But then on the technical specs tab it states:

Same dimensions as the Hammond Manufacturing 1590N1

It's all right there. Plain as day. And my model designation name/nomenclature history theory rabbit hole from this morning needn't've been explored. I need a drink.

What's super bizarre is that while Mammoth calls the 125B "similar" to the 1590N1, but then just brazenly call its other enclosure offerings "Hammond 1590x clone" https://web.archive.org/web/20101206091408/http://www.mammothelectronics.com/category-s/22.htm  WHY change the one but not the others…? Yeah, they all have that "4S" prefix, but why? WHY change just that single enclosure's name?

Everyone else who sells clone enclosures still call it the 125B to this day—the name STUCK! Yeah, everyone sells the 1590-series. You see someone selling a 1590B and it is still, factoring in the cloning process tolerances, a 1590B. But no one but Hammond seems to want to call this particular enclosure a 1590N1; it's always a 125B

So if it is Mammoth's fault, why do we still call it that? just because it's been encoded in the DIY world's subconscious? And if it isn't their doing, who did it before them?

Okay, after writing all of the above text out, come to find out it's not even Mammoth!!! A capture from Smallbear's 2003 stock list https://web.archive.org/web/20031211114941/http://www.smallbearelec.com/Ordering/Stocklist.htm has 125B on it! Though it's a ribbed version exclusively here. (however, looking back further the 1590N (no "1") was also ribbed) https://web.archive.org/web/19970626193341/http://www.hammondmfg.com/1590n.pdf  [edit] ALSO, that 2003 Stock List states that their "125B" has corresponding P/Ns at Jameco as well as Circuit Specialists.

And others reference this exact Small Bear stock item: https://disastermfg.com/125-b/

The popular Taiwanese 125-B, licensed from Small Bear Electronics.

They also have a separate product listing for a "Mammoth 125-B" https://disastermfg.com/mammoth-125-b/

Furthest back I can see is "Circuit Specialists" which links to "web-tronics" from 1999 mentioning a cast aluminum enclosure "03-125B" with similar specs to the 125B we commonly see https://web.archive.org/web/19990922025054/http://www.web-tronics.com/webtronics/general-supplies-for-electronics-enclosures-die-cast-aluminum-enclosures.html 


tl;dr
So at some point in the late 1990s, Web-Tronics/CircuitSpecialists started stocking MiT enclosures which were a clone of the preexisting Hammond Mfg 1590N, called the "03-125B" and the name has just sort of stuck in one way or another since… Y THO?!

[jimilee]

[emoji50]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jwin615]

Likely a sick inside joke that, due to a company failure in dot-com bubble, was never corrected.

Or maybe it was an engineering professor trying to teach a lesson the hard way...

[harryklippton]

As much as I dislike "1590N1," I was ready to just start calling it that if it was Mammoth's fault

[Aentons]

It's like calling vibrato tremolo. It's Leo's fault but nobody cares and just roll with it.

[jessenator]

Yeah, I'm not going to go around attempting to preach and convert everyone to start calling all 125Bs the 1590N1. I mean, I'm going to call it that, but that's me  : P

Here's where things get sticky: https://lovemyswitches.com/125b-enclosure-gorva-design-c65-powder-coat/
This isn't a 125B on-paper. Yes, I see there's a note about this in the top of the description that the dimensions differ, and in the details they call it out: C65. But if you're just wanting to grab an enclosure, maybe you're in a rush, it's easy to miss since you're not expecting with something that—at least in my opinion—should conform to a standard (and a product is using THAT designation associated with it), in actuality won't match. People see "125B" and think that it's going to conform to that standard.

The PCB bought by the friend I mentioned earlier fits (in CAD)  inside of a 1590N1 with about 1mm tolerance on each side at the narrowest point of the enclosure. For comparison, this is where it completely jams up in the Gorva C65:
Nearly the widest point of the enclosure...


IMO, this is more than "a tiny bit skinnier" when you're considering the scale we're working at. This isn't meant to throw LMS or Gorva under the bus necessarily, but at what point do you need to stop calling a product by a name whose design standards you aren't respecting?

I'm mildly concerned about this for my own projects: I have a buffer of 2mm on each side for the Sardine Tin v.3 meant for a 1590N1— measured based on the Hammond CAD drawings. I mean, I'd feel bad for someone who buys a board then goes and orders something that's a "125B," and then come to find it doesn't fit. And judging by the fitment of that board in a C65, I don't think it will ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Willybomb]

I'm mildly concerned about this for my own projects: I have a buffer of 2mm on each side for the Sardine Tin v.3 meant for a 1590N1— measured based on the Hammond CAD drawings. I mean, I'd feel bad for someone who buys a board then goes and orders something that's a "125B," and then come to find it doesn't fit. And judging by the fitment of that board in a C65, I don't think it will ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And then you have whatever clones Tayda are selling that have thicker walls and tops too.  You're flat out getting a washer and nut onto a 9mm pot with a painted/stickered/poweredcoated Tayda 125b.

[Aentons]

It's like calling vibrato tremolo. It's Leo's fault but nobody cares and just roll with it.

I apologize. This sounded really rude but that was not my intention. I'm with you on the misnomers.

[jessenator]

And then you have whatever clones Tayda are selling that have thicker walls and tops too.  You're flat out getting a washer and nut onto a 9mm pot with a painted/stickered/poweredcoated Tayda 125b.

Interesting. I haven't actually fitted my one threaded-9mm pot project into an enclosure yet... I'm measuring 2.4mm on a recent powder coated one (at the walls, unfortunately not the top), vs 1.75mm on the CAD model. Top on the CAD model is 1.6mm, so yeah, that's super tight  : /

For my recent 1590N1/125B projects I think I checked the outers of Tayda's wares to make sure my drill pattern (from my 3D printed templates) would actually match... lucked out on the internals, but maybe I didn't care, since the outside dimensions were close—Now I think about it, I double checked: within fractions of a mm of a CAD 1590N1. My Sardine Tin actually has about as much breathing room as in CAD as well, which is nice. And I was using 16mm pots, so thankfully there was enough clearance.

It's like calling vibrato tremolo. It's Leo's fault but nobody cares and just roll with it.

I apologize. This sounded really rude but that was not my intention. I'm with you on the misnomers.

No worries, my dude 

[jkokura]

Uh... perhaps my memory is incorrect, but I was buying 125Bs (called 125Bs) and using them for pedals long before Mammoth Electronics was a business...

I'm not sure what you're on about, I tried reading the original post, but I don't think you have some facts correct.

*edit, I decided to go back and read, and it turns out you figured it out yourself. Anyway, the point is, it's a 125B because the people who made it used that designation. I suspect they're still called that their name. Your post feels a bit like a 'Why do we call anything what we name it?' kind of post...

Jacob

[jessenator]

Uh... perhaps my memory is incorrect, but I was buying 125Bs (called 125Bs) and using them for pedals long before Mammoth Electronics was a business...

I'm not sure what you're on about, I tried reading the original post, but I don't think you have some facts correct.

*edit, I decided to go back and read, and it turns out you figured it out yourself. Anyway, the point is, it's a 125B because the people who made it used that designation. I suspect they're still called that their name. Your post feels a bit like a 'Why do we call anything what we name it?' kind of post...

Jacob

My post was sort of a thread / process of thought. At first I did think it was Mammoth, but as the post goes I show the trail going back as far as Circuit Specialists getting the name in the late 1990s. See the tl;dr at the end of it 


My point is about standards more than anything. I don't care what an individual calls it—it's their business. My concern is about standards, and if someone markets something as a "125B" and it doesn't match to the point that whole builds don't fit, *that* is a problem.

I've addressed those details further up.

[museums]

The reason 125B is more prevalent is likely based on cost. When 4Site enclosures came onto the market they were half the price of a 1590N1 or less. Since the enclosure is often the most expensive part of a pedal this is a huge savings on BOM cost for a manufacturer and you end up with many people referring to that part number because its just what they use for their products.

[Aentons]

The reason 125B is more prevalent is likely based on cost. When 4Site enclosures came onto the market they were half the price of a 1590N1 or less. Since the enclosure is often the most expensive part of a pedal this is a huge savings on BOM cost for a manufacturer and you end up with many people referring to that part number because its just what they use for their products.

Not saying I'm correct, I remember seeing the 4site stuff come out and looking for equivalent Hammond models and not being able to find one for the 125B. It may have been the 1590N1 was only available with ribs. The ribs may explain the tolerance discrepancy and/or the "similar" remark. Not sure

[museums]

The 125B may predate the 1590N1. Hammond added a bunch of enclosures in the last decade or so that weren't available when I started building pedals and the N1/BB2/B2/etc... that don't follow the 1590(letter)(letter) format in their names are all relatively recent. Or they may be ported over to the 1590 series from one of Hammond's other lines that was not common in music industry products. Around the same time is when they started offering a few enclosures in half a dozen colors other than black and natural. You're probably right that it was only available with ribs.

[jessenator]

I pointed it out earlier, but the 1590N (no "1") had the ribs. The 1590N1 does not. Even as far back as 2005 (I just picked a year pre-2010)
https://web.archive.org/web/20050825121731/http://www.hammondmfg.com/dwg.htm

It started life as a part of the sub-series:

Diecast Aluminum Enclosures (1590 Series) with P.C. Board Mounting Ribs

https://web.archive.org/web/19970626184310/http://www.hammondmfg.com/dwg.htm

The 125B may predate the 1590N1. Hammond added a bunch of enclosures in the last decade or so that weren't available when I started building pedals and the N1/BB2/B2/etc... that don't follow the 1590(letter)(letter) format in their names are all relatively recent. Or they may be ported over to the 1590 series from one of Hammond's other lines that was not common in music industry products. Around the same time is when they started offering a few enclosures in half a dozen colors other than black and natural. You're probably right that it was only available with ribs.

I would like to see the proof and will be happy to be proven wrong

I've found (linked previously) catalogs of Hammond's 1590 series dating back to 1997. The earliest reference to the "03-125B" is in 1999, from the link to Web-Tronics' catalog (also linked earlier in the thread). But I could be wrong. I don't have any scans or paper catalogs of records previous to when the WayBack Machine was capturing sites. If someone has a 1995 or older Hammond Mfg and Circuit Specialists (Web-tronics) catalogs from the same period 

Can't say I'm familiar with "4site", but the wayback machine didn't provide me with any useful prompts with just "4site" —so if you know what the url was, one could plug it in and see how far back it goes.


https://web.archive.org/web/19991012070001/http://www.web-tronics.com/webtronics/general-supplies-for-electronics-enclosures-die-cast-aluminum-enclosures.html

These 03-125 series enclosures have an "A"  "B" and "C" designation, which also had channeled (ribbed) walls like Hammond's series:
125A appears to be a clone of the 1590L
125B, appears to be a clone of the the 1590N
125C, appears to be a clone of the 1590R




At the end of the day, just circling it all back, it's weird that we use the Hammond 1590-series numbering for every enclosure except the N1/125B ; that part is the fun investigative / speculative part of the story.

The other part I'm coming around on is (broken record time again), a non-125B being marketed as such (sort of, short-hand, caveats, quick glances and you might miss it), to the point of, maybe we need to retire it, maybe bring the 1590N1 back.

IDK, I'm not the boss of internet, I can't change anyone's/everyone's mind at will, but I wonder how many folks might get actually angry about it all to a litigious degree. Doubtful, but you never can tell.

I'm just an inquisitive, pedantic weirdo who likes this, and was wondering why my friend's board didn't fit his "125B" enclosure.